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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Ammeters vs Voltmeters ???

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Alberta Mike

12-12-2004 06:19:50




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Any reason why there were ammeters on all the old tractor stuff and never (I don't think) voltmeters? What is the advantage of an ammeter over a voltmeter (or a voltmeter over an ammeter)? I think all new cars/trucks only have voltmeters, is that right?




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Mark - IN.

12-13-2004 05:47:18




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Alberta Mike, 12-12-2004 06:19:50  
Both are valuable meters, and don't do the same thing. One tells you your source voltage/output, the other tells you your current draw. They do not do the same thing. Ideally, would have both so you know your starting point, source before drawing against it (turning on lights, etc), and where you are afterwards as compared to alternator/generator output/rating. Many have neither, and the ones that do are not always accurate.

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Hal/WA

12-12-2004 15:23:12




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Alberta Mike, 12-12-2004 06:19:50  
When my son replaced the old low amperage alternator on his 71 Scout with a much cheaper, later GM internal reg. alternator, we found that the ammeter got really hot (the battery had been fairly discharged). Once the battery was back to full charge, the ammeter never got hot again.

I think that the ammeters in older machines were often wired with all or nearly all of the electrical load running through the ammeter. I suspect that the Scout ammeter was fine for about 30 amps maximum charge, but 60 or 65 really challenged it.

The Scout didn't burn up, but we worried about that possibility when we saw how hot the ammeter got. We put the battery on the charger overnight rather than continuing to charge with the engine. He kept the Scout for another year with the same ammeter and alternator and it continued to work OK, but he avoided situations where the battery would get discharged a lot.

I recently changed alternators on my 84 F250 because it quit charging and the ammeter needle never moved. With the new alternator, the needle still never moves, but the system appears to be charging--the battery stays up and the electric choke opens. I have studied the wiring diagrams and believe that the factory wiring only measures one of the smaller wires to the alternator rather than the whole output like it was on the Scout.

I think I will add a voltmeter below the dash since I can't seem to figure out why the existing ammeter needle never moves. Maybe the dash ammeter is broken or there is a break in the wiring harness or something? A voltmeter would be able to tell me if there is enough charge in the battery to start the truck, which often sits for a week or more without being used.

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ChrisH (IA)

12-13-2004 10:34:02




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Hal/WA, 12-12-2004 15:23:12  
Hal Your needle may be stuck in the center. On my 68 Mustang, the ammeter seemed to quit working and that was all it was. If you can get the face of the dash off, try moving the needle. If that fixes it, you can lube it with a drop of liquid silicone on a toothpick. (silicone from a spray can).



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Hal/WA

12-13-2004 21:34:47




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to ChrisH (IA), 12-13-2004 10:34:02  
Thanks for the advice. I need to dig into the dash anyway to replace a couple of bulbs and will try moving the ammeter needle. It could be stuck.

My coolant temp gauge quit some time ago and a new sending unit didn't fix the problem. So I already have an accessory temp gauge below the dash. Maybe the Ford gauges are not as durable as the rest of the truck.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the old 84. It has a 460 with an aftermarket AFB carb and has 4 wheel drive. I don't think there is any way I could get that much pulling power for any where near as little money as my old Ford. It has always been very dependable. I won't brag about the gas mileage, but on the other hand, I don't drive it every day.

But old stuff does have its little annoyances and kinks.....

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MarkB_MI

12-12-2004 12:43:18




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Alberta Mike, 12-12-2004 06:19:50  
I think the older vehicles and equipment used ammeters because the ammeter is a simple instrument to read: plus=good, minus=bad.

There are several reasons why the switch was made to voltmeters. I think the biggest one is that the high capacity alternators made it impractical to wire ammeters: either you have to have a remote shunt, or else you have to plumb a heavy gauge wire through the instrument panel. Also, it's pretty difficult to tell a one amp charge from a one amp discharge on a 100 amp ammeter. The main reason for using voltmeters is that they are simpler and cheaper in most applications.

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Rod (NH)

12-12-2004 07:40:43




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Alberta Mike, 12-12-2004 06:19:50  
Hi Mike,

Replace your old ammeter with a voltmeter and don't look back. Here's some food for thought on the subject.

third party image Rod



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jdemaris

12-12-2004 19:09:32




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Rod (NH), 12-12-2004 07:40:43  
The "guru" mentioned in the article you linked to, makes a few errors. First of all, an ammeter does NOT have to carry full charge current - he is absolutely wrong. It is a common practice, especially in automobiles, to use shunt-ammeters. This type of ammeter measures votage drop across a small shunt bar and is hooked with small wires that do NOT carry high current. Further, for him to state "there is no chance for misinterpreting a voltmeter's readings as can happen with an ammeter" is a little silly. Anything can be misinterpreted, nothing is foolproof, and there are definite advantages and disadvantages to both instruments. That's why I like having both. A voltmeter will not instantly tell you there is an exceptionally high draw on the electrical system when the engine is not running; a ammeter will - e.g. like leaving the lights on by accident. A voltmeter will not tell you your overloaded system is at a discharge every time the engine is idled down like an ammeter will - unless you have a VERY accurate voltmeter and a small battery. Most automotive voltmeters are somewhat vague and most batteries are large enough so they act a buffers to fast readings. On the other hand, a voltmeter is nice since it will report battery condition before the engine is running which an ammeter will not. But, even this can be misleading since, if there is a draw on the system, the volt reading might be an indicator of some other problem like excess current draw - which an ammeter would tell you right away.

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farmall jim 10

12-12-2004 14:22:13




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Rod (NH), 12-12-2004 07:40:43  
Excelent post and article I think I will use a volt meter next time ..Thanks Im ccanging over a 560 farmall to alternator and I do believe I was a voltmeter this time..



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jdemaris

12-12-2004 06:37:47




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Alberta Mike, 12-12-2004 06:19:50  
Generally speaking the voltmeter hookup is cheaper to do than a conventional ammeter/ampere gauge. A voltmeter does not carry current, it only reads voltage which is a combined result of charge current, system draw, and battery condition. Subsequently, it can be hooked up with a cheaper small gauge wiring. It does not provide as acurate, moment-to-moment charge reading as does an ammeter. On a 12 volt systems, cranking voltage is supposed to be around 9 volts. Normal battery voltage around 12.5, and voltage with a normal charge rate at around 14 volts. So, when the reading appears to be abnormal, you don't know for sure what is going on. Also, if the system stops charging, you may not notice right away as the voltage drops slowly. Ammeter/ampere gauge in a conventional hookup must carry full current of the charging system. Thusly, its more expernsive and cumbersome to hook up because of the lengths of wire involved and the heavy gauge. Especially in an automobile where the gauge is on the dashboard and the engine up front. One way around this is the shunt-wired ammeter that only carries a fraction of the actual charge current, and in-turn, only provides a reading of a fraction of the actual rate. If done correctly the result is the same and it can be hooked up with small gauge wire. For example, such a gauge might carry 1/2 an amp instead of 30 amps, and subsequently, read 30 amps when 1/2 an amp is running through it. Chrysler used this setup in many cars. Personally, I like having both. A voltmeter allows you to observe battery condition every time the ignition is turn on whereas an ammeter won't. But, once the engine is running, the ammeter allows you to observe exactly how the charge rate is occuring.

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Leroy

12-12-2004 07:06:38




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to jdemaris, 12-12-2004 06:37:47  
Could you explain how to hook up both to a single wire alternator hooked up to a Briggs engine to use as a charger for camper batteries when hi line power is not avaible



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Loren

12-12-2004 10:48:30




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Leroy, 12-12-2004 07:06:38  
Using a standard ammeter and a voltmeter run the wire out of the altenator to the ammeter, then back to the battery. All of this wire has to be big enough to carry the maximum charge amount. Run a second small wire from the battery side of the ammeter(since you"ll probably mount them side by side)and noting polarity, the other side to ground. If the system is working and you get a - amp reading when running then the ammeter leads are swapped. Loren

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Jim K

12-12-2004 06:37:43




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Alberta Mike, 12-12-2004 06:19:50  
A voltmeter usually won't tell you that there is a problem till it's almost to late.
an amp meter will tell you right away what the draw is on the battery or the state of charge.
I prefer to have both, that way you can diagnose a problem as you go. so's you can make it back to the barn before things start to smoke or die.
The reason that they don't put them in newer vehicles is that it is not economical as you have to run the large positive alt or gen cable to the meter itself.

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Al Fitch

09-19-2005 16:37:18




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 Re: Ammeters vs Voltmeters ??? in reply to Jim K, 12-12-2004 06:37:43  
I"m glad I searched and found this discussion on Ammeters.

I have had problems starting my Farmall A for awhile and just assumed it was the battery without knowing if I have done anything wrong.

I recently bought the book How to Restore your Farm Tractor by Robert Pripps and discovered what might be my problem.

On page 15 I read about usage of the Ammeter (which before today I thought was merely a light switch). It appears as if I have not been running my tractor right since I never turn on the Ammeter until dark (when I need lights)

Am I correct in my interpretation of the info about Ammeters that normal runnnig means using the ammeter? Would doing so charge the battery and correct my bad starting problems?

Along with your yes or no answer if you could explain simply what the Ammeter does and basically how it does so this electric deficient fool would love to learn about it.

Thanks

Al

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