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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

what is a relay?

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StuBC

11-14-2004 06:35:58




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A simple one formost, but I am not sure what a relay does or when to use one. I put some 12v lights on my MC crawler with its own switch. I didnt use a relay but I wonder if it should.




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buickanddeere

11-14-2004 08:20:15




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 06:35:58  
In addition to the previous posts.The relay provides isolation of the control circuit from the power circuit. And allows different frquency,voltage or polarity to control other electrical sources. If more than one set of contacts are used on a relay. That allows one signal source to control more several loads but the loads are isolated form each other. A 5 volt output from you machine's computer can turn 12V on or off. This protects the sensors and logic circuits from surges and spikes heavy loads being switched. I saves having to filter all electrical loads to "computer clean" quality.

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StuBC

11-14-2004 07:01:23




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 06:35:58  
Do you think I would be ok to wire my lights as I did then, with no relay? They work well.



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Mike Groom

11-14-2004 16:54:07




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 07:01:23  
A relay is used to close a circuit,usually by magnetic force to complete a connection of a larger amperage carrying wire.It puts less amperage through the switch.



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Frank Kovarick

11-14-2004 21:11:24




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to Mike Groom, 11-14-2004 16:54:07  
First time I ran into a relay was on a 1934 Plymouth when I added sealed beam headlights. They took more amperage than the old style lights and using just the switch, the lights were dim. So as the other posts indicate, it takes the load off a switch. If the switch is heavy enough and doesn't overheat, go with just the switch. An MC crawler uses 6 volts and needs heavier wire than a 12 volt system and is another reason for a relay. Run the heavier wire from the power to the relay and use lighter wire to the switch.

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RZ(WA)

11-14-2004 12:05:12




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 07:01:23  
If your lights work, without melting the wires or frying the switch,then go with it.



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Paul Janke

11-14-2004 07:07:45




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 07:01:23  
You should need a relay only if you are farming a large acreage at night, and want to light it all up at the same time.



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john in la

11-14-2004 07:06:52




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 07:01:23  
Like I said unless your tractor looks like a Xmas tree and you have a proper amp switch no relay is needed. Now if you have a 5 amp switch and have 15 amps of lights you would need a bigger switch or a relay.



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john in la

11-14-2004 07:00:52




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 06:35:58  
A relay is a way of moving more electricity than your switch can handle. It can also be used to move large amounts of electricity a short distance with out running large wires all the way to the switch which may be far away. Think of a starter relay.
It has two large wires where the power from the battery is hooked to the starter. Since we do not want to run large battery cable to the key and the key would not handle this much power any way we use a relay.
The relay is built with a plunger in it. In the rest position the large terminals are not connected. We push the start button or turn the key and this sends power through a coil of small wires in the relay. This coil of wire creates a magnetic field which moves the plunger so the power is connected through the two large terminals.
Most tractors and equipment do not have enough lights to need a relay. On the other hand you see some big trucks going down the road with many lights. They look like a Xmas tree. If you had that many lights you would need multiple switches or a relay. LED lights have cured this because they do not need as much power to work.

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twopop

11-14-2004 06:55:55




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 06:35:58  
a relay is ,basically,a heavy duty switch.it is usually controlled by an ignition switch,toggle switch,etc.the relay allows for full battery power to be sent thru the circuit it is used in.switches are made for a small amount of power to to go thru them,when used in high amp draw systems,they fail quite offen.by inserting a relay into the circuit,it becomes more reliable



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txblu

11-14-2004 06:52:39




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 06:35:58  
A relay is a switch. It is used for one of two reasons. (Also known as contactors, solenoids)
1. Current to be switched is high and it is desirable to keep the wiring as short as possible. So relay is mounted adjacent to the high current source and load where the high current contacts are wired in. The light current Control circuit wiring is then routed remotely to the controller (Switch).

2. About the same thing. The switching device is light weight, or in a crowded area and it is not desirable nor practical to have heavy current switching and wiring present. So a relay is used in some remote location to do the heavy work while being controlled by a light current control circuit.


Mark

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jdemaris

11-14-2004 06:57:03




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to txblu, 11-14-2004 06:52:39  
Just adding my two-cents worth. In most contexts, a relay is a remote controlled switch that opens or closes an electrical circuit - and nothing more. A solenoid however, IS intended to do more. A solenoid, with the use of a relay, creates mechanical movement, e.g. to engage a starter drive, shift a transmission gear, push a clutch into place, etc.



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Brian G. NY

11-14-2004 17:16:09




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to jdemaris, 11-14-2004 06:57:03  
JDE, Most of us Ford nuts refer to out starter "actuators" as "solenoids", but you're right; they're nothing more than HD relays and most Ford repair manuals refer to them as such. Then again, lots of people refer to that big thing under the hood as a "motor" LOL



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Zeak

11-14-2004 19:15:58




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to Brian G. NY, 11-14-2004 17:16:09  
I just looked up solenoid and motor on dictionary .com. They are really going to have to rewright their stuff.



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RAB

11-14-2004 13:12:34




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to jdemaris, 11-14-2004 06:57:03  
A solenoid is a cylindrical coil of wire which can be used to produce a magnetic field by passing a current through it. Can be designed and used for lots of technical jobs as well as a starter actuator. Magnetising and demagnetising objects comes to mind as one use of a solenoid.
Regards, RAB



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jdemaris

11-14-2004 19:49:05




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to RAB, 11-14-2004 13:12:34  
Your definition is absolutely correct as are some of the others. The problem with word definitions is the time-period and context. Word usage changes over time and also varies depending on who is using the word and where. Most older technical manuals written for automobile and tractor mechanics during the late 1800s and early 1900s describe the solenoid exactly as you have, and also use the word interchangibly with "helix." Many modern techinal manuals written for the 20th or 21th century "technician" will often desribe it a bit differently. My only point, if there is one, is there is no absolute defintion for the word that works everywhere. Even the word "mechanic" changes over time and places. It used to connote any person that worked with his hands, not just a "grease monkey" like some of us (or at least me).

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StuBC

11-14-2004 17:46:11




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to RAB, 11-14-2004 13:12:34  
Many thanks, I will not go with a relay, but now I know why and how. I am sure that others learned from my dumb question as well.

Now I should have also asked about 'do I need a fuse in the line and where...' (I didnt put one in). PLease advise, STU



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txblu

11-15-2004 06:11:09




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 17:46:11  
The purpose of a "fuse" is to "fuse" in case of a circuit short or other "current" overload. If it weren't for a fuse, the conductors would overheat and melt insulation which would allow wiring to short to other wiring and you could easily wind up with a fire.

The fuse is usually rated for 1.5 times the normal current.....if you need 10 amps to run 2 headlights, put in a 15 amp fuse and size the wiring accordingly which is 14 awg (good rule of thumb). IF your headlights are 35watt and you have 2, and a 6 volt system, you are right at (tad over) 10 amperes [if wired in parallel...one side of each to the fused wire (via light switch) and other side of each to chassis ground]. 12 volt system is half that (if you are using 12v lamps). You could still wire up with 14 awg and use the 15 amp fuse however..... .you're protecting the wire (usually), not the thing using the power; however it does get protected also.

Now you could send a 12v wire to 2ea 6 volt 35 watt lights and wire the lights in series across the 12v input (12v hot....from the 15A fuse) to one light then other side of that light to input of the second light (not ground) and the output of that second light to ground). In that case the 14 awg wire would still be correct.

You can get fast blow and slow blow fuses. Slow blow fuses are designed to hold on higher than normal current (overload) for a few seconds.....like when a motor starts.

Even though a lamp usually has about 1/10 the normal resistance when cold, and hence a 10x inrush of normal current, it is very short in duration and in a tractor, a normal blow fuse usually is adequate.

And that's the rest of the story (Paul Harvey)

Ask another question.

This is fun.

Mark

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StuBC

11-15-2004 07:08:10




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to txblu, 11-15-2004 06:11:09  
Its 12volt. I have 4 farm tractor lights running in series. I have 14 gauge wire. I think I better put in a fuse. Do I read right to use a 15amp fuse then?



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buickanddeere

11-15-2004 18:15:37




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-15-2004 07:08:10  
If the lamps are the same size and in series. They are going to be pretty dim at 3 volts each. 12 gauge feeding two lamps is ideal. A return to ground from the lights eliminates problems from corrosion.



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txblu

11-16-2004 09:17:55




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to buickanddeere, 11-15-2004 18:15:37  
Assumed he had enough sense to wire 12v bulbs across 12v.

Mark



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txblu

11-15-2004 12:03:15




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-15-2004 07:08:10  
Last tractor lights (JD and Ford) I bought were 12v 35 watt. Watts = V/Amps. So that's right at 3 amps each x 4 lights is 12 amps. 12 amps is ok for 14 awg and a 15 amp fuse is usually used for 14.

But the whole amperage thing is about wiring insulation. The current that a wire will safely carry is based on the insulation. Just looked up Fusing current for 14 AWG wire. It's 166 amps....not a misprint, 166 amps. Fusing current is the current that melts the wire.

So you can see 15 is a long way from it. If you have a conductor inside a small pipe with a lot of other wires and have soft plastic insulation it is a lot different deal than having one single wire strung out in air with heavy plastic insulation.

Do this. Put in the fuse at 15 amperes. If it blows, you can either put in a slow blow 15. Or if your wiring is as usual on a tractror, go ahead and put in a 20 ampere. Iffin you get an overload that is that bad, you'll probably smell the insulation getting hot before you melt it to the point where you have a melted wiring harness.

For most plastic insulation that is available at the auto store 85 F rating should easily carry 20 amperes in an overload.

Besides if something shorts and overloads the circuit but isn't quite 20 apmeres, you are going to notice something is wrong and go investigate. So it won't be overloaded all that long anyway.

But if you are really concerned go rewire with either 2 14 amp ckts @15 amps or use 12 AWG wire and the 20 amp fuse.

Mark

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RAB

11-15-2004 09:47:24




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-15-2004 07:08:10  
StuBC
If those lights are 12 volt rating, I hope you have wired them in parallel, not series! If they are,say, 55 watts each, at 12 volts you will be drawing not so much less than 20 amps.
Regards, RAB



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Mark - IN.

11-14-2004 19:13:04




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 17:46:11  
Two things: Wasn't a dumb question - the dumb ones are the ones not asked, right before something gets blown up. But for your purpose, you don't need a relay.

Second, you should have an inline fuse, and I'd put it in between the switch and the power source, that way the switch is protected as well, and if for some reason the switch shorts to ground, your source (battery) is protected. Now, the size of the fuse and wiring depends upon the draw of the headlights. Wire needs to be rated at least what the fuse is, but never a bad idea to go with larger guage - but is an awful idea to go with smaller. The point of the fuse is that it is rated equal to the draw and surge of the components, never more than.

Now for a really dumb answer: A relay is where people run around a circle and hand each other a stick because they have nothing better to do. LOL, and have a nice night.

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Karrie Rickard

02-26-2005 08:44:07




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to Mark - IN., 11-14-2004 19:13:04  
My husband's grandfather has a John Deere 50. The tractor will not start, he is wanting to know they can fix the old relay switch or get a new one?



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Anthony

11-14-2004 18:56:43




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to StuBC, 11-14-2004 17:46:11  
It's a good idea to put a fuse in the line. Locate the fuse as close to the power source as practical; that way if there is a short anywhere downstream, either before or after the switch, the fuse will blow and protect the wiring.



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StuBC

11-16-2004 07:39:21




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 Re: what is a relay? in reply to Anthony, 11-14-2004 18:56:43  
Thanks guys, as usual very informative.



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