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Converting from off highway fuel to on highway fue

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thejdman01

10-21-2004 11:54:39

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i have a few tanks that are right now off highway fuel tanks and want to switch them over to on highway fuel. if i were going the otherway i wouldnt worry but going from red to geen worries me. the fuel supplier said just pump out what you can open drain on the bottom and dont worry about it. i however would like to "rinse" it with something. he said if i wanted to i could rinse the red out with green. that pry would work however i would like to know if anyone has a better idea thanks in advance

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Leland

10-21-2004 21:22:43

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Look for some one that has some older Polar Power with Z-4 it's a fuel treatment I used to run it in fuel and the best part it was RED, so I always carried a bottle in case I got checked but never did,but JD man its starting to get colder just wait and use it when temps drop outside they won't be worried about any thing but staying warm. I never had gotten checked during DEC- JAN-FEB so just burn it and don't fret about it ,or find some polar power and drop a small shot in tanks best stuff on earth you can run straight #2 up north and never miss a beat.

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john in la

10-21-2004 20:17:06

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Red dye is mixed with fuel at a rate of 1 gallon to 10,000 gallons. That is 6.4 oz per 100 gallons. And this amount will turn it blood red. So yes a small amount of dye will ruin a lot of diesel. But you are not dealing with red dye you are dealing with dyed fuel. 10 gals of fuel is only .64 oz of dye. This much mixed in 500 gals of fuel may make it a little darker but not even pink.
We mix red dye fuel and road fuel together every day. See when a truck loads red fuel at most racks all it is; is road diesel injected with dye. A lot of places do not even sell true high sulpher anymore. So when the next truck starts to load road diesel he gets the dyed fuel that was left in the piping from the first truck. It may be 5 gals but when mixed with 1000 gals you can not tell it apart from clear.
I would drain the tank as best as you can. Put 20 gals or so of clear in the tank to wash it out and drain. It may be a little to red so use this in your tractor. Document that the tank is empty and get a recite for the road diesel. This gives you a leg to stand on in case it is tested. Do not wash out the tank with a steam cleaner or water. This makes the water a hazardous material and must be disposed of properly. Only licensed places with water separators are suppose to do this.

About a CDL.
While I can not comment on your states exemptions if any I can tell you what the federal law says.
You must have a CDL with a H endorsement for any vehicle that has placards. A tank endorsement is needed for tanks over 1000 gallons.
So do you need placards?? While most placards kick in at 1000 pounds; Diesel is a class 3 combustible and must be placarded only in bulk. So is your tank a bulk tank?? If it is not removed from the vehicle for loading or unloading it is considered a bulk tank. So your 400 gallon tank will hold 400x7.5lbs per gallon or 3000lbs and would not be removed for loading. So you meet the requirements on both counts. Never have heard of a red fuel exemption to CDL rules but any thing is possible I guess. So you will need a CDL with a H endorsement to use your 400 gallon tank and it will need UN1993 placards. These rules will apply if the tank is full or empty. The only time you can remove the placards from a bulk tank is if it has been steamed cleaned out. The vapors that are left in the tank from the fuel are considered as much a hazardous material as the fuel itself. This is why bulk containers do not follow the 1000lb rule for applying placards.

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john in la

10-21-2004 20:20:06

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to john in la, 10-21-2004 20:17:06

Sorry my placment of the decimal point was wrong in the above post. It should read .64oz in 100 gallons and .064 oz in 10 gallons

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doublebfarms

10-21-2004 18:48:40

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Short of a lab test a little residual red wont stain a whole tank of onroad. Everytime my truck needed warranty work I simply ran down to 1/8th tank of red and filled up with highway diesel.

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raytasch

10-21-2004 18:44:00

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Anyone who has filled with diesel while in FLorida in the past few weeks may have a trace of red dye in their tank. I bought fuel at a truck stop a couple weeks ago and it was red. I was using it off road so it made no difference to me. I was discussing this with a friend who was also concern with getting red fuel in his service truck. His employer had already investigated and said they were running anything they could get and DOT and the tax folks were not concern. I would sure hate to be the test case on that one.
ray

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Gene Davis (Ga.)

10-21-2004 18:34:34

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Won't he need a hazardous material and tanker endorsment on his CDL to haul fuel and place cards on the trailer also?

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THEJDMAN01

10-21-2004 18:39:19

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to Gene Davis (Ga.), 10-21-2004 18:34:34

thats what im wondering i dont know what the cut off is for illinois. some semi's round here got 2 250 gallon tanks and thats 500 gal and they dont need haz mat thats just what they haul. i would be wanting to haul 400 gallons. the trailer is placard 1993 now (farm diesel) which i dont need hazmat now because it is for farm purposes. being im transporting fuel for a farm semi not sure if i would need one for this or not

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Rod F.

10-21-2004 17:55:09

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

I think if you drained the tanks out completly, then just filled up with new fuel, you probably would be fine. It takes a fair bit of dyed fuel to contaminate a large tank of clear fuel. Mabey that's different if there is green dye. I don't know. For peace of mind, mabey you could go in with a steam jenny or pressure washer. That would help with the crud too. Just my 2c.

Rod

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RAB

10-21-2004 16:41:24

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Steam clean is a good way to get rid of the red, or just pressure wash with chemical cleaner. The tank should drain if tilted the right way.
Be careful driving with part filled tanks in particular - can easily become unstable if not baffled properly.
Regards, RAB

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Punchie

10-21-2004 14:43:39

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

Not sure why you have the wrong fuel ,but as long as you have a good reason , a very good store for doing it.

I would just have a filling person or a friend that is a cop with me at the station (good witness) when you fill them up and a log to go with it, and dated reciept .

If you would end up in court I would think the judge would have to go your way .

Kerosene maybe a good idea.

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thejdman01

10-21-2004 12:57:28

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

im not currently running off road fuel in my semi i am just switching the tanks i used to use for farm fuel into a way to transport fuel from woodmans to my home for my semi instead of paying the insane prices at the hampshire truck stop near where i live

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Nebraska Cowman

10-21-2004 12:52:37

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

I would document my switch, take pictures, have your fuel man sign that he is filling an empty tank, document all fill and use and hope for the best. At least if you end up in court you will have a leg to stand on.

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John M

10-21-2004 12:51:06

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

You shouldnt have been running off road to start with,but I dont blame ya for it,I have been known to throw a left over gallon or two in my rig as well.I have gotten away with telling one cop that I accidentally put the wrong stuff in at the station.Fortunatelly he knew where I got it,and could see how the confusion would happen.

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thejdman01

10-21-2004 12:35:34

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

i will be running on the highway and the cops around here know how to stop dullies with livestock trailers at stock yards even at farm auctions they like to show up and dip tanks. the reason im concerned about draining them so well is the way my fuel guy says a pint of red fuel somehow through a chemical reaction the way he says a pint of red fuel will contaminate 100 gallons of green fuel. i was thinking never tried it at all high sulfer diesel fuel is heavier then green fuel. so my early theory would be hey if anys left red more sulfer heavier would be at the bottom where the pickup is if a little red is left no big deal shell be at the bottom get sucked out used up as long as the dont pull me over for what maybe a day and especially open drain on fuel filter no problem right. wrong. are any of you guys fuel experts. is this that my supplier said about red turning 100 gallons of green red true??? thanks

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thejdman01

10-21-2004 12:45:24

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 12:35:34

next question is fairly related so here goes. what i am trying to is this. right now we have 2 200 gallon tanks mounted to a cart. right now both red for fuel. diesel around here is 2.27 and 9/10ths however one gast station (woodmans) rockford illinois si selling it for 1.87(now you guys tell me how they can sell it for so much cheaper im sure they're not pumping it for free) but anyways. it is a gas station in front of a grocery store and weight limits and configurations prohibit me from getting my semi in there (plus quite a drive to get there 50 miles). now i could bob tail it there and fill but would like to have some reserve around for semi when running loads to the elevator. so i dont have much land anymore(gone to concrete) and really dont need the tanks for off road fuel but need it through the year as i sell periodically and need to haul it to elevator. so having on highway fuel around is more pertenant right now and like i said eariler if i do ever want to go from green to red its very easy. so thats what im trying to do. also is anyone familiar with illinois law? somone told me since im not a licensed fuel hauler and since not related to farm use (even though i am taking fuel to my semi which hauls my grain) but isnt farm use *darn blagoacich our governor but lets not get into that thats another story. anyways since im not a licensed fuel hauler and its not "farm use"aka i guess cause its not red i cant even haul that much fuel. so any clearification would help

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Redmud

10-21-2004 12:18:06

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

If the tanks are clean, other than having off road fuel in them why would you want to rinse them? Or am I missing something here? I don't think there would be enough dye left in the tanks to cause a problem.
Redmud;

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Mike (WA)

10-21-2004 12:28:20

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to Redmud, 10-21-2004 12:18:06

The red off-road dye is very pervasive, and will show up in even minute amounts- leading to the possibility of huge fines from the Guvment for evading road tax.

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Redmud

10-21-2004 12:48:07

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to Mike (WA), 10-21-2004 12:28:20

I can understand this if the fuel is for an over the road 18 wheeler. other wise I don't see the problem. no one has ever checked my fuel. maybe it's which part of the U.S. we live in.
Redmud:

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Sloroll

10-21-2004 12:05:32

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to thejdman01, 10-21-2004 11:54:39

You could rinse with kerosene.

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Super Lurker

10-21-2004 12:20:43

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Re: Converting from off highway fuel to on highway in reply to Sloroll, 10-21-2004 12:05:32

Your fuel man isn't the one who will be paying the DOT fines if you get caught. If your not going to be on the highway, then there shouldn't be any problem. BUT--From what I have been told and have read, the red dye is a real bear to get rid of. Very minute amounts of red dye fuel left in a tank full of green fuel will show up if tested. Your right going from green to red is no problem, but going the other way--if ever tested--could cost you way more than a new tank cost.

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