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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Surprises, Surprises

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txblu

08-06-2004 06:50:48




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Yesterday I got whacked (on this site) for abandoning my Delvac 10w-40 oil and using TSC HD 40 wt in this "new" worn out Perkins 3/152 Diesel that I don't want to overhaul because of low oil pressure.

I thought, here I am an oil fanatic (of sorts) and I am being criticized for my choice of oil. Humph!

So I stopped by TSC after work yesterday and examined a container. Shure enough, there was no mention of any Diesel specs on the container. I looked over their entire stock and found no certified 40w single grade.

Rotella T was there in 30 wt (with the latest CH-4 and all) so I said, what the heck. Took it home and put in. Haven't used single grade 30 wt since using "Gulfpride Select Single G" in the '60's which was crystal clear. This Rotella T was that clear. I guess all the brown tint I see in multi-vis. is the viscosity stabilizer.

Anyway, put the cap back on and fired here up..... no oil pressure. Wait a minute. I just had oil pressure, turned the machine off, drained the oil, put in new, and restarted and no oil pressure.

Turned the engine off and waited; back on and still no oil press. I knew it was there just a gauge problem (air). Revved her up to pto and after a full minute of suspense..... presto, 60 psig. Phew. Never know when Murphy will jump out and smack you....but I knew better....like I said couple of days ago: the gauge is for you; has nothing to do with the engine's performance...as long as it's properly lubricated. It was, it was purring like a kitten....it was me that was upset.

Mark

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TomTX

08-06-2004 13:51:01




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to txblu, 08-06-2004 06:50:48  
Hey fellow Texan txblu, that was me "wacking" you for using the TSC no-brand oil. Sorry, but I really get heated up in a hurry at people trying to save a nickel by buying cheap lubricants. They are the same ones that cry around the coffee shop about rebuilds, engine failures, and repair bills. Again, sorry. I will try to be nicer next time. Tom



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txblu

08-08-2004 08:02:55




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to TomTX, 08-06-2004 13:51:01  
Thanks Tom.

I really wasn't shopping el cheapo. I was looking for a 40w oil and that was the only one I found. Now that I have installed Rotella T 30w pressure is holding pretty well.

Thanks for "owning up to it" (Grin),

Mark



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MMB

08-06-2004 17:39:22




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to TomTX, 08-06-2004 13:51:01  
Sorry to burst your balloon but a number of years ago I read an article in an automotive magazine regarding brand-name vs No-name oils. A taxi cab fleet in New York City was involved in the research test, they took delivery of 10 brand new cars (same brand, model, engines, etc.). Five used brand name oils and the other five used off-brands. After 300000 miles or so (all having regular maintenance, etc.) the engines were tore down and evaluated/measured for wear. Results showed no appreciable difference either way between the two types of oil. Now that's a scientific study. Now I realize that you and someone else might have had different results but overall, I think you're dreaming if you think there is any appreciable difference between the types. Myself, I'm one of those penny pinchers you mention and I drive two '87 vehicles, both of them over 240000 miles and they still run great with regular maintenance.

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Larry

08-07-2004 21:36:43




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to MMB, 08-06-2004 17:39:22  
I agree with you 100%. As someone who worked in a shop as a mechanic I've seen a lot of tired engines.

#1 oil failure we saw in the shop was due to NOT changing the oil or not having any in the bloody engine!!!!! !!!!! !!!

If you use the proper SAE rated oil that your manufacture calls for you're good to go.

Some feel its better to pay 10 bucks a quart and run it for 10-15 or even 20,000 miles with a filter change. Well I don't buy it, I'll buy the standard cheap oil and change it at my regular time period that the manufacture calls for. Personally I would never buy a vehicle that didn't have its oil changed at the proper milage even it had $20/quart oil in it.

Someone posted below about questioning gas engine not lasting 300,000 miles. Whats the big deal?? Especailly for a taxi good god those things run not stop!

AS for sludge in a engine there are many more factors besides oil that are likely to cause sludge in an engine.

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JT

08-07-2004 14:02:02




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to MMB, 08-06-2004 17:39:22  
I respectfully have to disaggree with you, first I find it hard to believe any Taxi a few years back could run 300,000 miles, that is a ton of miles for a gas engine, if you meant 30,000 miles, that is not even broke in yet. The one of the main differnaces between oils is the purity of the base oil and the additives added to it. Oil is oil, the lubricity of oil is the same, no matter who bottles it. What you get is consistancy of the oil viscosity and the stabilzaion of the oil under daily use conditions. When I was young, I bought the cheapest oil I could find, after 50,000 miles I decided to build my engine. That engine was so full of sludge and garbadge from the cheap oil it was not even funny, Wne to Shell rotella as Dad told me alwasy to use and never did tear down a sludged up engine again. That may not be scientific facts, but it a true, hard fact from the school of hard knocks!!!

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Ron in AR

08-08-2004 07:13:52




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to JT, 08-07-2004 14:02:02  
Hey JT, just for your info, I had a 1971 Dodge van in the late 70's with a 318 engine. Had a little over 150,000 on it when I bought it. Used it for work and pleasure and put some hard miles on it. Kept the oil changed as I should and took care of it. Went through two transmissions and various other non-engine parts. Ran like a champ when I sold it at around 320,000 miles. Saw it a few years later still on the road, same engine or not can't say, but I know what it had on it when I sold it. So I know that those older engines COULD do it. Just not too many people took the time to maintain them properly. Just talking from my own personal experience.

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TomTX

08-06-2004 18:39:50




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to MMB, 08-06-2004 17:39:22  
Well good for you. I respect your opinion, but I differ with it.



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jeds

08-06-2004 11:00:01




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to txblu, 08-06-2004 06:50:48  
The color of an oil is tied to the Base Oil used. If it is hydrotreated it will be near clear. It has nothing to do with the add package.



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txblu

08-06-2004 12:38:37




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to jeds, 08-06-2004 11:00:01  
Being I like to understand mechanisms, to help figure out how to solve problems, would you please explain what you are talking about.

What is hydrotreated and do multivis's get it or just single grades?

Thanks,

Mark



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Jay (ND)

08-06-2004 14:35:11




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to txblu, 08-06-2004 12:38:37  
Just about all oil now is hydrocracked, or at least partially. What it is basically is Group 1 base stocks (traditional mineral oil) had the wax separated out, usually by chilling it. Group 2 base stock is hydrocracked. The wax is still in the oil, but broken down to where it's usuable. With stringent new regulations that the EPA has put on OEMs, including EGR, pretty much everything is Group 2, or partially. Group 2 has advantages of better lubrication, high viscosity index and cold flow. But they don't hold additives worth squat. The traditional mineral based hold additives very well. Because the Group 2s don't hold additives well, usually this rules out any extended oil drain program. What many manufacturers do, including Mobil, is blend Group 1s and Group 2s. This gives them the increased lubricity, higher viscosity index and improved additive performance. Add these up, and you have an extended drain oil. Group 4s are your synthetics.

Chances are, if it's crystal clear, that its a straight Group 2 oil.

Clear as mud? Here is a general explanation stolen from the internet:

Group I - Solvent Freezing: Group 1 base oils are the least refined of all the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little or no uniformity. While some automotive oils on the market use Group I stocks, they are generally used in less demanding applications.

Group II - Hydro processing and Refining: Group II base oils are common in mineral based motor oils currently available on the market. They have fair to good performance in lubricating properties such as volatility, oxidative stability and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point, cold crank viscosity and extreme pressure wear.

Group – III Hydro processing and Refining: Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of mineral oil refining of the base oil groups. Although they are not chemically engineered, they offer good performance in a wide range of attributes as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. They are commonly mixed with additives and marketed as synthetic or semi-synthetic products. Group III base oils have become more common in America in the last decade.

Group IV -Chemical Reactions: Group IV base oils are chemically engineered synthetic base stocks. Polyalphaolefins (PAO's) are a common example of a synthetic base stock. Synthetics, when combined with additives, offer excellent performance over a wide range of lubricating properties. They have very stable chemical compositions and highly uniform molecular chains. Group IV base oils are becoming more common in synthetic and synthetic-blend products for automotive and industrial applications.

Group V - As Indicated: Group V base oils are used primarily in the creation of oil additives. Esters and polyolesters are both common Group V base oils used in the formulation of oil additives. Group V oils are generally not used as base oils themselves, but add beneficial properties to other base oils.

Note that the additives referred to in the Group V description are not aftermarket type oil additives. The additives referred to are used in the chemical engineering and blending of motor oils and other lubricating oils by the specific oil company that produces the finished product.

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txblu

08-08-2004 08:00:41




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to Jay (ND), 08-06-2004 14:35:11  
Interesting. Be nice if you knew which was in your oil when you are shopping.

Thanks,

Mark



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TimFL

08-06-2004 08:39:26




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to txblu, 08-06-2004 06:50:48  
A couple disturbing instances like that made me start putting a secondary oil pessure guage right in one of the oil ports on the block. No reading on the guage can be frightning.

My$.02



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txblu

08-06-2004 09:34:25




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to TimFL, 08-06-2004 08:39:26  
Tim, aren't you the one who whacked me yesterday on the TSC oil? Grin

Mark



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TimFL

08-06-2004 10:05:18




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to txblu, 08-06-2004 09:34:25  
Let's revisit that, cause I don't remember a TSC oil discussion. Of course sometimes I forget.....

My$.02



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txblu

08-06-2004 12:36:35




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 Re: Surprises, Surprises in reply to TimFL, 08-06-2004 10:05:18  
Aw I bought this tractor and it need an OH. Don't want to do it so I decided to up the oil viscosity to get the gauge up. Tried what I usually use in the 15w-50 range and didn't go up as much as I wanted so I stopped by TSC and bought house brand HD 40.

Got whacked as whacker said that I would really need an overhaul after using that crap. Well I thought he was blowing off until I did what I said above. He was right. I deserved to get whacked.

Mark

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