E85

Ethanol can be distilled from any vegatable matter that can be distilled and has sugar in it. Corn is mostly used. Brazil uses quite a bit of it in a few million cars.

Now I've been mildly ripped when I disagreed that E85 will save the earth and your autos. Sure, it's renewable but my contention is that if it comes into heavy usage, it won't reduce the price of gas at all.

Here is a summary of some quick facts...ethanol comes in a higher octane...it'll boost hp about 5%. It is a cleaner burning fuel. It'll provide a greater market for existing farmers growing corn, sugar beets and such. That's about it for the benefits of the stuff.

The negatives...ethanol doesn't give you the same milage that gas does. Gas has more btu's per unit than e85 and e 85 will give you roughly 5-8 mpg less than gas. It is priced to be competitive with regular gas. You can't fill up everywhere as you can with gas. I don't know if multifueled engines are priced higher but that would be a negative.

More negatives, if e85 comes into heavy usage, the distribution of fuel is still with huge gas companies and they'll charge whatever the market will bring and we already know that silly boycots, screaming on boards and such won't work.

The production of corn and such is locked up with huge businesses and the distillation of ethanol is also with large businesses and they will get larger. They will have no interest in getting competitive and dropping the price of multifuel because there is no one to get competitive with. Subsequently, you'll wind up paying about the same per gallon for e85 but get less mpg and that translates into paying more.

The only way this might..might work is if e85 starts to burn OPEC and they drop the price of oil and then e 85 will have to compete with that.

For those who call upon the government to get involved..be careful for what you wish. If the government sniffs out, and they have, that this stuff is cleaner burning, and it is, they'll mandate this and the end result is that we'll all be using this stuff and then you'll see the price of fuel really shoot up.

Having said that, about the only way that you can save yourselves from higher fuel costs is to drive less "weight"...takes less fuel to move less weight. Simple really.

One aside...for the older, wiser on this board.. note that over the years, gas shoots up in price to some high and then backs off a bit. The public gets used to the backed off price and they think they have a bargain..sort of like taking 3 steps forward and 1 backward and the public is happy..this has happened repeatedly over the years and you know it. Now, the fuel is over $2/ and it'll back off abit and all will be happy. You'll factor in the higher cost and go on with life. Some time in the future..it'll go up 3 steps again and backoff 1 and we'll be happy once again. This has nothing to do with the government, it's all business and if any of you were CEOs responsible to your stockholders, you would do the same.

I'm ducking now.

Based on your research, E85 apparently isn't an economical alternative to gasoline at this point in time (when gas is $2.25/gallon). But, as bad as it is, $2.25/gallon is not what scares me - $4.00/gallon, now that scares me. I don't know what the break-even point is when you figure in extra cost for fuel-flexible vehicles and the reduced fuel economy, but I'm sure hoping (and guessing) that it's less than $4.00/gallon.

You propose something to the effect that adding additional fuel to the world market will not bring the price down because the suppliers/processors are just going to continue jacking prices up to whatever the feel like to make however much $$$$ they want. As one poster below alluded to, the only way the suppliers can charge whatever they want is if they are collaborating on the price. Now with gasoline that seems to be a viable option because we rely on foreign suppliers that aren't subject to U.S. anti-trust laws. I don't know for fact (maybe you do), but with ethanol added into the picture the U.S.'s energy needs could be met domestically with oil and ethanol. Assuming that to be the case, our anti-trust laws should eliminate any price-fixing issues.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that it is my relatively uneducated guess that, while E85 might not prevent us from suffering a little at the pump, it probably would be a very reasonable alternative if the price of gasoline really got out of hand.

As for hydrogen, I don't know much about it. I'm certainly open to the possibility that it might be a better fuel. So long as it performs reasonably close to ethanol/gasoline, any safety issues are reasonable, and it's not to big a PITA, I say fine.

My point was, if there is such a conspiracy and the average of the 3 steps forward and 1 backward gets high enough, other fuels (like ethanol) will be a viable way to avoid total disaster.

Disaster? Nope. Just higher prices. Not to particularly unusual. Will be a problem a few years down the road.

Will we pay $3.00/gallon for gasoline?

Will we pay $5.00/gallon for gasoline?

Will we pay $10.00/gallon for gasoline?

I absolutely cannot believe that if gasoline is $4.00/gallon that ethanol wouldn't be a viable and economical alternative. How could that be?! If there's profit to be made on production and distribution of ethanol at a price that provides the consumer with an economic alternative to gasoline, what stops people from making it, distributing it, and using it?

It hasn't yet made sense economically speaking to derive a substantial portion of our energy from ethanol. That doesn't mean that there is some inescapable truth that will cause us to use gasoline regardless of the price.

Neil

Maybe we don't want a "transporter". Might throw the whole economy into a huge depression.

With two family incomes, this is affordable. I live in snow country and our plowing of roads is just superb. The longest you might be held up is a few hours. Certainly, the next day the roads are clean and dry. Why do people insist on a 4x4? I drive a Caravan and have never had a 4x4 and can't remember when I didn't make it home or got stuck.

I've ask many a 4x4 owner when was the last time they had occassion to use all wheel drive. None answered positively....one lady who ran off the road couldn't understand why her 4x4 slid off the road on the icy streets. No one could explain to her that a 4x4 slides on ice just as well as a two wheel vehicle. She just wouldn't buy it.

Anyhow,, human nature is to show your stuff and mortagage whatever you need to to show that stuff.

This will get you...I've asked some what brand name SUV they had and some have answered "SUV" and looked at me like I came from outer space. "I have a SUV". Yes but who made it? Honda? Ford? They didn't know.

Yes, some need the four wheelers but on average, most don't.

One thing is certain,,about 300 million people in this country and about 150 million vehicles and they're all going here and there and all use gas. Think it's bad now? Wait, another 30-50 years and this country will have 400-450 million people and watch the price of gas then. Something will have to give. Uh,, if I was younger and had a few extra bucks, I'd buy property. Can't make any more land. Price is going to sky rocket by then.

Any commodity will be priced for max sales at max pofits. You aren't going to find a fuel that gives you 30 mpg & sells for 25 cents a gallon. E85 will be priced to maximise profits - we are in a capitolist society.

There are 15-17 ethanol coops in my state, more doing ground breaking. Other than the Marshall fiasco, all are doing well and are farmer-owned. Not corporate.

E10 is already mandated in Minnesota. Dispite being as far from the ports as you can get, out fuel is a few cents cheaper than national average,

Can find an E85 pump in most every town around me for miles & miles....

So, there are some negatives, some positives.

Sounds like anything else. We won't save the whole world with E85. Probably won't save it with any other single product. But for those who wish to try it, more power to them. Fuels change over the years - can you pull up to a station & get distilate very easily?

So, what was your point??? :)

--->Paul

I think energy prices will keep up with inflation, so I think we are doing ok. The problem is the uncertainty in the market, and the sudden spurts in increases. A pair of jeans goes up a little every year. Fuel prices make dramatic increases every 5 years or so.

An obvious way to lower fuel prices is to allow more refineries to be built in the USA, and allow more exploration & drilling for oil in this country.

Hummm, seems a certain segment of our USA society will _not_ allow that in _their_ back yard - while tooling around in their SUV's.

That's my take on the problem, and who I would blame. :)

Not that I think our current situation is actually bad - if we can stablize the insecurity in the future of liquid fuels..... Current prices are a shock, but not a bad deal. Tough for me, farming relies on a lot of fuel, a lot of bulk heavy transportation, and fert made from some fuels. But still, fuel prices are still not out of line with blue jeans & hamburgers....

It would be nice if we relied more on our own resources & people & ecconomy for all those products - from jeans to fuel - tho. We are selling ourselves to the world market. I'm on board that train too, but don't know if it's such a good destination. :)

--->Paul

I did a lot of research work on using ethanol byproduct feed in the early '90's and learned a little about the industry while I was doing it. One of the leading arguments against is that it takes so much energy to grow the feed stocks (natural gas that goes into N). The argument they miss is we have huge gas reserves. Sure, prices may go up but think what it would do for the economy to keep all these dollars circulating within our borders rather than the middle east and central America.

As far as the impact of blowing up a few refineries rather then killing 3000 people and knocking down the symbols of American including the untouchable Pentagon, the refineries wouldn't have remotely the emotional, political impact that the Trade Towers had. Think what you will, that was one well thought out and executed plan which elicited the greatest cheer in the Arab world. A few refineries? Chump change.

I really don't know at this moment the % loss in mpg and suspect that it would be quite variable given different conditions that we would need some type of spread sheet to figger it all out. Suffice it to say there will be a loss in mpg. Besides, I was up at 5:30 and half blind from the lack of the coffee kicking in when I typed all that. :-)