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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

AMP gauge

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Dave

02-01-2004 16:58:59




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I just replace my AMP Gauge on my AC-tractor (D-15) with one form NAPA. It seems to jump around alot when I give it more gas. It jumps from 0 to 20 amps back and forth very fast. I just replace the genarator and Voltage regulater also. Any Ideas what might be wrong?




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John K

02-02-2004 20:30:07




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 Re: AMP gauge in reply to Dave, 02-01-2004 16:58:59  
When the engine is reved up is there more vibration where the battery sits, could possibly be an intermitant short in the battery. You didn't mention whether the battery holds a charge.



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K-Mo

02-02-2004 04:12:26




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 Re: AMP gauge in reply to Dave, 02-01-2004 16:58:59  
Dave,
1. Polarlize. With engine off, momentarily connect a jumper between the GEN and BAT terminals on the regulator.
2. Start the engine and attach a jumper between the GEN and BAT terminals on the regulator. If oscillation stops the regulator is faulty.
3. Attach a jumper between the FLD terminal on the regulator and the chassis. the current reading on the Amp gauge should increase. If oscillation stops, the regulator is faulty.
4. Your problem could be a loose connection.

I'm not familar with AC, but this general proceedure is used in most cases.

Good Luck,
K-Mo

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Gene Davis (GA.)

02-01-2004 20:18:10




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 Re: AMP gauge in reply to Dave, 02-01-2004 16:58:59  
amp meters bouncing on the old generators can be caused by weak brush springs, dirty communtators, out of round communtators, damaged wire to the regulator from the generator. Lots of time you can polish the communtator with a generator brush stone, or fine sanspaper,(be sure to blow out residue), and look to see if the brushes are arcing or bouncing while it runs with the band off that covers the brushes. The regulator needs to have a good secure ground to generator also.Check to see if you have a good connection at the amp gauge you installed. Also be sure you polarized the generator/regulator to the correct polarity orentation. then if all else fails you can check for a slinging short or loose communtator bar or the armature dragging on the field coils. Generators are not an exact science, but not too hard to deal with if you can find the correct test equipment anymore.

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greenbeanman

02-02-2004 08:34:06




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 Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Gene Davis (GA.), 02-01-2004 20:18:10  
Gene, should the mica on the commutator be undercut after doing the stone polishing of it?

Seems I remember something to that effect, but was told it 39 years ago. Hacksaw blade held by hand to remove a little of it? Hm.



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old

02-01-2004 17:55:49




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 Re: AMP gauge in reply to Dave, 02-01-2004 16:58:59  
This is just a guess but here goes. I'd say its probably a regulator that is cutting in and out a lot, I'd try takeing that one back and getting another one to see if maybe you got a bad one



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Bob

02-01-2004 17:53:57




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 Re: AMP gauge in reply to Dave, 02-01-2004 16:58:59  
What's wrong? If your battery is staying charged, probably nothing. I just can't believe it when people whine about the ammeter flickering on this old stuff. Those old generator systems are not exactly rocket science, and did that when they were new. If the battery is being keep charged while the tractor is running, DON'T WORRY!



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varmint

02-01-2004 18:38:53




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 Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Bob, 02-01-2004 17:53:57  
SO shoot me some ROCKET SCIENCE so we can all take your comment seriously, Bud! And by the way, WHINING is permitted on YT ; CARPING is not, unless you're a REAL ROCKET SCIENTIST and then you're still subject to wanton abusive by us mortals.



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Bob

02-01-2004 18:51:41




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 Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to varmint, 02-01-2004 18:38:53  
I've been around this old stuff all my life, and have repaired it for a living for 30 years. I was just being realistic when I said not to worry about it as long as the battery is being charged, (if, in fact, it is). Another voltage regulator may, or may not, cause the meter to jump less. The bottom line is, this old stuff is not as precise as the newer solid state stuff, NOR DOES IT NEED TO BE. The bottom line is, if it's keeping the battery up THERE'S NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, nor is there any need to throw money at the problem, unless you have too much.

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AZ Jack

02-01-2004 20:06:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Bob, 02-01-2004 18:51:41  
I believe that an ammeter jumping back and forth is not normal no matter whether you have 30 yrs. or 0 years experience servicing them. They were as precise in the "olden" days as they are now if everything is as it should be. Granted they would work under more adverse conditions and still do their job more so than modern day stuff. I think Dave was looking for some constructive help and was not whineing. This is just my humble opinion! Jack

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Mark in AB

02-02-2004 09:39:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to AZ Jack, 02-01-2004 20:06:26  
I can't say i agree, technology going backward? Not in this world thanks. I have a tractor that does the same, when the battery is getting near full charge and you have lots of rpm, the needle jumps, go down to idle and it will hold steady. Keeps the battery charged either way. Just the nature of the beast, it is not a micro chip solid state regulated 180 amp alternator. I agree you don't have to jump down a guys throat, but also be realistic, this is old very very basic equipment here, far from swiss watch operation. No comparison whatsoever to the state of the art technology available now. I doubt you drive a car/truck with manual steering as your main vehicle, so don't say the old days were better.

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Bob

02-02-2004 10:33:16




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Mark in AB, 02-02-2004 09:39:49  
Mark,

This is Bob, from the "NO WHINING" post. I'm not sure if you were referring to me as "jumping down someone's throat", but it was not my intention to belittle the original poster. I was being a bit off-the-wall, and my weird sense of humor does not carry through as well on a message board, as it does when I "rib" someone I know face-to-face.

I have been known to do very precise, by-the-book repair work, but at the same time I've been around this equipment long enough to know each charging system with a mechanical "vibrating point" regulator has it's own personality. If you have a test bench, and the spec's for the voltage regulator, there are spring tension, armature air gap, and point settings in the regulator that can be "tweaked", but few people have the time, equipment, or know-how to do this anymore. The regulator you have is probably a generic replacement for the original, and is probably not quite as closely matched to the generator as the original was, and this may make the voltage regulation process a little rougher. Thirty or forty years ago, shops had catalogs listing the exact part number regulator to match the generator. There were dozens, if not hundreds of exact replacement regulators listed. Now, there are a handfull of regulators listed as generic replacements for all those listings. They generally work, but maybe not as well as the original.

As you mention, when the battery is charged, and the engine is revved up, the mechanical regulator points open, and the generator goes to low charge, or no charge, until a little juice is drawn out of the battery, and then the contacts close, and the generator goes to full charge for a second or two. The voltage regulator points again open, and the cycle repeats.

Ideally, this happens so rapidly the ammeter does not flicker, but in the real world on a vibrating old tractor, there is often noticable "flicker" of the ammeter as the regulator is cutting back the charging rate.

The original poster mentioned changing the ammeter, and it is possible the new ammeter needle is not "damped", and accentuates the appearance of "flickering".

Anyhow, I appologize for being offensive, but I stand by my original post that if the battery is being kept charged, there is nothing to worry about. This would be a different matter on a modern unit, with a bunch of electronic loads, such as computers, and DVD players, but the ole tractor probably isn't powering any of those!

I guess, in my experience, I've seen more old equipment with a "flickering" ammeter, than with a very steady ammeter. We have all been around modern electronic stuff for so long, sometimes we forget that things have not always been so precise.

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buickanddeere

02-02-2004 11:42:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Bob, 02-02-2004 10:33:16  
Maybe a DC capacitor could be connected across the regular field points to attenuate the current swings? The other possibility is the cut-out spring is way too tight. Should be just snug enough to cleanly and reliably open the contacts when the engine is shutdown.



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Bob

02-02-2004 12:06:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to buickanddeere , 02-02-2004 11:42:06  
Some rebuilt generators for vehicles used to come with a tag stating to be sure the static suppression capacitor WAS NOT connected to the FIELD, and to be sure to connect it to the ARM terminal or damage could result. I don't know the basis for that warning, but have never wanted to tempt fate by hooking a capacitor to the FIELD terminal of a DC automotive-type generator.

As far as messing with the cutout relay spring without a test bench with reliable meters, and spec's for that particular cutout, I think that would be tempting fate, also. The "flickering" meter is harmless at this point, but a cutout that has been tampered with and fails to drop out will kill the generator, the regulator, and the wiring harness. (Been there, done that!)

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Jim Broughton

02-01-2004 19:02:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Bob, 02-01-2004 18:51:41  
Bob; Did you "polarize" your voltage regulator when you installed it? If not, that could cause your amps to "jump around ! LOL Jim



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Loon Yi

02-01-2004 20:01:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AMP gauge in reply to Jim Broughton, 02-01-2004 19:02:07  
Could you give the proper procedure for polarizing? I tried doing it according to the manual once, with the jumper wire technique, but still get the jumpy amp-meter



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