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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Cavitation

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MT Pockets

01-02-2004 15:21:27




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I was just wondering if one brand of Diesel engine is more prone to cavitation than another.Cummins, Caterpillar, Case, IH, MM,etc. What are your experiences and opinions? Thanks. MT.




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Larry806

01-02-2004 20:35:15




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 Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 15:21:27  
I've rebuilt several 855 series Cummins that did it Thay always do it on the exaust side of the motor in a straight line top to bottom. Usually no 5 or 6 cyl leaks first. In the "old" day's guy's tried hanging chains from the truck axel so every time they stopped the chain would ground the truck The thinking was static electircity caused it. Than they came out with a water filter that had pot metal in it thinking that it would eat that & not the liners

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kyhayman

01-02-2004 19:38:27




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 Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 15:21:27  
I have never seen it (or any evidence) of it in non wet sleeved engines, not saying it can't happen though. As for wet sleeved engines, had far too many with it.



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thurlow

01-02-2004 19:18:37




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 Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 15:21:27  
Out of about 20 diesel engines (not abused, but worked hard)through the years; only had one to do this; black-stripe 1066, which failed at about 2500 hours. Others were John Deere, Allis-Chalmers and one each M-F and Cummins.....



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raytasch

01-02-2004 17:31:47




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 Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 15:21:27  
Don't know if it shows up more in one brand of engine than another. If you have a wet sleeve diesel engine you best run coolant with the correct SCAs. I've read Cummins technical bulletins and they say a sleeve can fail in 30K miles of road service without SCAs. Cummins does not require SCAs for the B block engine as it is non sleeved. I have heard of cavitation showing up in the non sleeve Powerstroke Ford engine although I can not verify that. I have a C8.3 wet sleeve Cummins and I monitor the SCA level at each service. I have a 172 cid Ford in an old 4000 and I don't worry about cavitation in it.
ray

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Gary-Miss

01-02-2004 18:26:35




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 Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to raytasch, 01-02-2004 17:31:47  
In the past few years, I have had to bore and sleeve two 3000 Ford Diesel engines (unsleeved type, one 2240 John Deere (sleeved) and a 450 JD crawler (4 cylinder sleeved. All of these had pin holes due to cavitation. I would recommend anticavitation liquid in any diesel.



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jdemaris

01-02-2004 18:57:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to Gary-Miss, 01-02-2004 18:26:35  
A comment about John Deere diesels and cavatation. I rebuilt a lot them back in the 60s,70s, and 80s when working as a Deere mechanic. For reasons I cannot explain, I never saw cavation on engines being rebuilt for the first time. Yet, once rebuilt with new sleeves, pistons, etc., the next time they're torn down (hopefully 10,000 hours later), the sleeves were full of pin holes. That's around the time that Deere and other manufacturers started recommending some sort of coolant conditioner. I wonder sometimes what exactly changed? Metals, fuel, ?? God is angry at tractors? Deere engineers told me that higher horsepower and torque ratings cause the increase in cavatation - which to a degree is true - since cavatation is caused by harmonics and vibrations causing bubbles on the liner wall. But, why, let's say, would a John Deere 450 not cavatate with it's first sleeves, but do so forever after once it's had it's first rebuild?

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david val

01-03-2004 00:22:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to jdemaris, 01-02-2004 18:57:22  
seems to me, that in the older days there was much less regard to coolant and regular tap water was used as coolant. in many cases the lime and rust on the sleeves actually acted as a 'shield' against cavitation. many of the sleeves were hard to pull beacause of the thick layer of lime/rust they had on. today when you pull a sleeve it comes out 'like new' snd in many cases there are cavitation marks. david

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jdemaris

01-03-2004 06:29:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to david val, 01-03-2004 00:22:57  
That's certainly true to some extent. I've pulled apart quite few engines that had a layer of mud at the bottom of the sleeves an inch deep, kind of like a creek bed. Back in the early 60s, General Motors came out with a nice little all-aluminum 215 cubic inch V-8 but gave it up since owners kept using pure water in the cooling system and the aluminum corrosion became a problem. They sold the engine to the British and they used it sucessfully for years (they're better trained over there?)

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RAB

01-03-2004 14:44:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to jdemaris, 01-03-2004 06:29:02  
Still using that engine!! Fitted to Range Rovers etc. Now at about 4.6 litres (or more?) as opposed to original 3.5 litre. Perkins also developed it as a diesel in the 70/80s. Called the Iceberg project, I think. Shelved because they couldn't stop the head bolts pulling out of the alloy block, I believe.
Regards, RAB



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raytasch

01-02-2004 19:06:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to jdemaris, 01-02-2004 18:57:22  
Interesting. Probably all the greenies and anti-diesel folks have something to do with it. (G) There wern't that many of them back then. ray



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Robert

01-02-2004 17:08:44




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 Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 15:21:27  
I believe you were right the first time.

Although the result is perforation of the cylinder, it is caused by cavitation.

It is the IMplosion of the tiny microscopic bubbles that were formed by the process of cavitation that erodes the metal and causes the perforation.

The phenominon is not all that special, we have old ultrasonic cleaners at work that show evidence of the same thing. Seems like the bubbles always pick the same spot(s) and form there and eat away at the metal, stainless steel in that instance.

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MT Pockets

01-02-2004 16:01:04




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 Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 15:21:27  
I'm embarrassed. I believe the word is perforation rather than cavitation. I'm speaking of the little holes in the cylinders or sleeves of a diesel engine. I believe cavitation has to do with pumps. Sorry about the mistake. Thanks. MT.



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partsguy

01-02-2004 21:50:13




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 Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 16:01:04  
ok mt, i make mistakes ,too....if you don't want the problem get some 24006 wix cooling system additive. it works.



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partsguy

01-03-2004 05:26:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to partsguy, 01-02-2004 21:50:13  
oops, i mean 24056 wix.



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jdemaris

01-02-2004 19:32:33




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 Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to MT Pockets, 01-02-2004 16:01:04  
There's nothing wrong with your terminology, just depends on context. Cavitation applies, and is correct, for describing the high frequency air bubbles that keep breaking, and causing pinholes in cylinder walls. Cavitation also applies to air bubbles, or air in general, in a fuel line.



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RAB

01-03-2004 00:09:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to jdemaris, 01-02-2004 19:32:33  
Forget 'air' bubbles - after all there isn't much in near-boiling coolant. It is more like vaccuum cavities caused by vibrations pulling the metal away from the fluid at high speed. When they meet up again (both moving at high speed towards each other), it causes erosion. Microscopic yes, but happening enough times will slowly wear away the metal - and it happens a lot of times every second!!
Regards, RAB

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jdemaris

01-03-2004 06:20:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to RAB, 01-03-2004 00:09:06  
Yes, I understand the process but am trying not to be overly erudite or didatic. A Deere engineer once, in an effort to talk down to us "grease monkeys", explained as thus: Cylinder walls, where they meet engine coolant get a nice layer of protective corrosion on them. High compression engines, e.g. diesels at 22 - 1, have harmonic-vibration enough to keep knocking the corrosion off so the process keeps starting over again and again - until there are little holes through the cylinders.

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ajax implement

01-03-2004 18:22:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to jdemaris, 01-03-2004 06:20:58  
In all you peoples minds what is the difference between caviation and electrolysis in an engine. Electrolysis will eat holes too and it makes no difference if it is sleeved or not.



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jdemaris

01-03-2004 19:20:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cavitation in reply to ajax implement, 01-03-2004 18:22:51  
I haven't heard of anyone claiming it only happens with sleeved engines. Fact is, though, if you don't have sleeves to pull out and inspect, you can't hardly see the effects of cavitation until there's coolant blowing through the cylinder wall. I've heard of unsleeved diesels doing it, esecially in Ford pickup trucks with the 7.3 International Harvester engines. Can't say I've seen it myself, though.

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