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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Batteries

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Robert

12-28-2003 07:18:20




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Truths (?)

Concerning batteries...

A cell is a cell. A battery is two or more cells connected together in series.

A 6 volt battery is actually three 2 volt cells connected in series already. All the current produced by the 6 volt battery has to go through each individual cell, so, the current rating of the battery has to be the same current rating of each individual cell.

Identical as they may be, no two cells have EXACTLY the same voltage, so, if you connect two cells or batteries in parallel, one will always be discharging into the other, effectively overcharging one cell (or battery) while discharging the other. Process may be small to almost negligeable, but still present.

Not only common in the early 60's for tractor manufacturers to put two 6 volt batteries in series, it continued much later. I had a 1977 John Deere 4230 I bought new. It had two six volt batteries in series.

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CH

12-28-2003 16:12:55




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 Re: Batteries in reply to Robert, 12-28-2003 07:18:20  
Here's something alot of you don't know know, HOW A BATTERY IS MADE.

First the battery complany makes a grid out of lead. The grid is "buttered" with a special lead oxide. It is then baked for a day to adhere the oxide to the grid. NOW, what the manufactures call black magic. The grids are hung in a fiberglass vat of sulferic acid, about 480 12V batteries worth. They start to charge them in reverse polarity for so many amp hours. Then they short them out, change the polarity then put so many amp hours as needed to give you the rating. The plates are then dried and set into your battery, welded together, a top put on and shipped to you.

I designed the control system for the "dry charging process for Prestolite Battery (who makes John Deere and other brand batteries).

Which brings us to the point that the plate welding process is about the only variable besides the composition of the lead oxide and grid composition. The condition of the welding tips and the cleanliness of the welding process is key. My old company also produced the weld monitoring systems.

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CH

12-28-2003 16:39:50




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 Re: Re: Batteries in reply to CH, 12-28-2003 16:12:55  
That BLACK MAGIC process always bothered me until I saw a program on PBS about batteries. The scientists know how the electro-chemical works but they don't know why it works. Funny.



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T_Bone

12-28-2003 13:12:09




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 Re: Batteries in reply to Robert, 12-28-2003 07:18:20  
Hi Robert,

(snip)if you connect two cells or batteries in parallel, one will always be discharging into the other, effectively overcharging one cell (or battery) while discharging the other(end snip)

They will go into a state of equalibrium as measured from the voltage from internal resistance as Jeff pointed out.

Somethingelse is you can also serries chargers for the voltage required.

Example; My golf cart orperates at 36v so I put 3-12v chargers in serries thus ending with a 36v charging source, howerver total charging amps will only be at the highest single charger rate or 10amps in this example.

T_Bone

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Jeff

12-28-2003 12:38:17




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 Re: Batteries in reply to Robert, 12-28-2003 07:18:20  
Voltage has nothing to do with a cells capacity.

What makes the different voltage
between the cells is the important part
you left out...

Which is the internal resistance of the cell
itself.



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RAB

12-29-2003 13:50:59




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 Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Jeff, 12-28-2003 12:38:17  
A bit wrong, mostly right. The electromotive force (the voltage at open circuit) at full charge will depend only on the type of cell - the materials it's made from and so should be the same. however, the internal resistance will affect the amount of useful energy (and terminal voltage) you can get from the cell as soon as you start to draw a circuit current. Most cells in batteries are all made in the same process and should have practically identical internal resistance if they have the same specific gravity electrolyte. BTW -You will deliver the maximum useable energy from a cell when the load resistance is equal to the internal resistance. One of the important things about a lead/acid battery is that the internal resistance is so low that very large currents can flow at short circuit (or near) so they are really useful for cranking loads.
Regards, RAB

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Robert

12-28-2003 13:26:46




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 Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Jeff, 12-28-2003 12:38:17  
Well, really, I didn`t leave anything out, but, I may not have made myself clear. The internal resistance of the cell is not a factor until there is current flow.

If you take two identical, new batteries, charge them identically, cycle them identically, charge them identically again, and so on, let them rest and later check their voltages, there WILL be a slight difference. Maybe only a few thousandths of a volt, but, enough that if they were connected together, there will always be current flow between them.

Left tied together in parallel, (with no applied load) over time, one cell will become overcharged and the other depleted.

It's a fact.

Due to impurities, no two batteries will have the same (at rest) voltages when fully charged.

Ham radio operators have known this for years, many of them have backup batteries to stay (on the air) when power goes out. Many of them are hyper about monitoring their batteries. All of them find that sooner or later when they need battery power, they will be unhappy because one battery will have "fought" the other.

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Red Dave

12-28-2003 15:39:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Robert, 12-28-2003 13:26:46  
We have several 250 volt, 800 ampere lead acid batteries at work for station controls. The only accurate way to determine charge is with a hydrometer. You're right, the cells do vary, but only within a narrow range.

Us old-time Hams know enough to diode-block our batteries so they can't discharge into each other ;)



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Roger

12-28-2003 15:33:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Robert, 12-28-2003 13:26:46  
Robert, since you mentioned it, just wondering if you're a ham?



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Robert

12-28-2003 16:55:36




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Roger, 12-28-2003 15:33:31  
Well, Roger, yes, I am a ham. Is that good or bad?

Red Dave is right, the voltage between cells is within a very narrow range, and in the case of parallel batteries in tractors that are used often, it probably would not matter.

The wisdom of connecting batteries in parallel has been argued over and over. Bottom line, it is done all the time, hardly ever any problem comes from it.

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RayP(MI)

12-28-2003 18:31:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Robert, 12-28-2003 16:55:36  
Another comment from a ham - GM used pairs of 12v batteries in parallel for their diesel powered vehicles. No doides, switches, just two batteries in parallel. As long as both batteries were replaced in pairs, new, they lasted quite well in series. They apparently reached the same state of charge, and aged well together, even if individual cells may have slightly different charges, and voltages. Got one in the garage right now.

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Parallel or Series????

12-29-2003 06:06:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Batteries in reply to RayP(MI), 12-28-2003 18:31:07  
You use both in the same paragraph. Which was it??



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RayP(MI)

12-29-2003 16:02:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Batteries in reply to Parallel or Series????, 12-29-2003 06:06:22  
Parallel -Parallel - parallel - SORRY!



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