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O.T. isulation and moister barrier.

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Chances R

12-25-2003 07:19:21




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Merry Christmas everyone. I have a house that was built in 1908. I am remodeling the upstairs. I have put rolled insulation in the walls and in the attic. I heard at one time that you need a form of moister barrier between the drywall and insulation. I am guessing it would be a sheet of visquen (exscuse the spelling). Any thoughts on the mill size (thickness) or if this is even needed. I live in southwest Indiana.

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wdTom

12-27-2003 07:54:49




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
For an old house that can be drafty I would definatly use a vapor barrier. Even if you use karft backed insulation in the walls, which you should do to hole it in place, a vapor barrier can help as there can be leaks or tears in the kraft face. Do the ceiling too. It is easier to vent the space with exhaust fans in the kitchen and bath if necessary than to live with a drafty house or have a moisture problem in the insulation. Do a very carefull job of insulation. If you miss a little corner it can let the cold into that whole section of wall or ceiling. Cut the insulation to fit the space carefully with maybe 1/2" to 1' extra at the ends, you want it to fit, but not compress the insulation. Insulation works because it traps air spaces, if you compress it it has less or no air space in it. You can't have too much atic venting. If you do a good job of insulation, install a vapor barrier, have good venting, you won't have a problem and you will forever be glad you did because it will be easier (cheaper) to heat. Try to get at least R19 in the walls and r 38 or 40 in the ceiling. You can fatten out the studs to be able to get more in walls or you can add a layer of ridgid foam board over the studs. Then the vapor barrier. I have a lot of walls in my house that are double studded and this works great I have found. A double studded wall has two rows of 2 x 4s, the sill and top plate are 2x 8s and the studs are offset from each other by 12", so you have a stud every 12" one on the inside, then one on the outside, etc. along the wall. At windows or doors you use 2x8s to frame the opening. When you put up the outside layer of 4' insulation you must puncture the vapor barrier to allow for moisture to pass out through it. I used a approx. 12" square board with a bunch of nails sticking out through the bottom, a 2x3" handle sticking up. I would just go along the insulation strup before I put it in place and make hundreds of holes in the kraft facing, then staple it in place. You really need the facing in a wall to hold the insualtion, unfaced would sag over time and be worthless.

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sod

12-25-2003 19:47:50




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
Definitely make sure that therer is ventilation. good luck
sod



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Ray

12-25-2003 15:56:59




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
Hi, I have a moisture barrier horror story. I applied 6 mil visqueen (plastic sheeting) to half my house - then had "help" putting up sheetrock by someone who didn't believe in it. We didn't apply it to the cathedral ceiling. 15+ years later, I needed to reroof. I could put my hand through the roof plywood because it had been condensing on the north-facing roof for all those years. Had to replace some rafters, tear off all the plywood, rebuild and resheath the north roof. (Southern exposure of the solar oriented house was fine, moisture got baked out of the insulation every Summer.) Put in roof vents and rafter vents to allow moisture to escape to the outside. Either apply moisture barrier or provide very good ventilation to allow moisture to escape. In cold climates, I would always apply moisture barrier, because it helps keep the insulation dry, as mentioned in other posts. Barrier or vents, one or the other, I'd do barrier if I had it to do again. Just my well earned $0.02. Ray

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Fred

12-25-2003 19:27:47




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 Re: Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Ray, 12-25-2003 15:56:59  
Sounds like the problem was not the vapor barrier but the lack of venting the attic. You have to allow for air movement in the attic or it will rot the sheeting every time. If the insulation will be close to the sheeting you have to install the baffles to give it room to breathe. The debate over using poly for a vapor barrier has been going on as long as I have been building and that is a long time. They will say to use it then say not to use it but as was said earlier the moisture in the house should be addresed in the kitchen and baths with exaust fans. If you don't you will have problems with or without the poly. If your house has a lot of drafts the moisture is not a problem but the heat bill is. I think the best bet is to use the 4 or 6 mill poly in the walls with nothing but blown in insulation and baffles in the ceiling. I have done it that way for about 20 years now with no problems. Keep in mind vents are the key to a good long lasting shingle roof. Keeps heat and moisture out. Fred.

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Ray

12-26-2003 09:47:01




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 Re: Re: Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Fred, 12-25-2003 19:27:47  
Hi, As I mentioned, this house had a cathedral ceiling - no attic, just 2x12 rafters w/sheetrock on the inside and sheathing on the outside. Ventilation is crucial either way though. I had the same problem in another structure with limited ventilation. Condensation on the sheathing, until I installed sufficient vents, then the problem disappeared. It really depends on climate though. If it is cold enough outside, you will get condensation on the sheathing without sufficient ventilation. Ray

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Willy-N

12-25-2003 12:02:05




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
I forgot what it is called mayby PVA Primer Paint but it will seal the sheet rock from the living side. It is legal for the use and I used it on my house and I have blown in R-48 in the attic and it stays nice and dry above the rock in the attic. Mark H.



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allisguy

12-25-2003 09:33:05




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
Just remember that the unheated side needs to be well vented.



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Robert in W. Mi.

12-25-2003 08:41:21




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
IF it was me, i'd use 6 mil., and over lap the seams at least 6". The 25 years i lived in Alaska, that's always the way it was done! NO one would use less than 6 mil. It goes over the studs/insulation just under the sheet rock. Tape up any holes that get in it with "duct tape", before putting up sheet rock or what ever.

Here in Mi. it's still done this same way, and i've NEVER had a problem, just keep in mind this is for a "cold climate, NOT a warmer climate!

You don't have to use a MB, but your looseing energy if you don't!

I've heard the horror stories about moisture b., but there's another reason for those problems that needs to be found, and it's not just the moisture b.

Robert

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KURT

12-25-2003 08:35:26




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
I would use the kraft backed paper, it has a tar like vapor barrier between the insulation and the paper. If you already used the rolled stuff use a 8mil plastic sheet and use a hammer tacker to hold it up to the studs, remember that you will have to screw the drywall to the studs and you wont be able to use construction adhesive because the adhesive will stick to the plastic sheet and not the wall studs.

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john

12-25-2003 08:21:11




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
While we had this discussion a couple of weeks ago and had some new school guys saying that the new way was to have no vapor barrier at all. I still believe in the old school way of having a vapor barrier.
SO.....
Some insulation comes with a vapor barrier (paper backing) which should be installed toward the living area only. I will assume yours did not have any.
Using a 4mil plastic sheet (easier to spell) stapled to the studs between the insulation and drywall is a good vapor barrier also. Taping all joints is a plus.

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jimNCal

12-25-2003 08:16:46




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 Re: O.T. isulation and moister barrier. in reply to Chances R, 12-25-2003 07:19:21  
Unless you put unfaced batts in your attic and walls, the paper facing(which should go against the back of the drywall) should be enough. In a real high humidity area, I wouldn't recommend a vapor "proof" barrier as it does TOO good a job and will trap moisture. This causes other problems with mold, mildew and such. Especially in your wood. If you used unfaced and want to add a vapor stop, best to use something paper based. Your house DOES have to "breath" some.
HTH jim

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