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Been checked for colorized diesel???

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thurlow

11-13-2003 14:53:27

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A friend and I were working in the church yard this afternoon. Fellow comes by driving a truck with State (TN)seal on door; my friend stopped and talked to him for about 10 minutes; I just ignored him and continued what I was doing. Finished up and walked over; he said, "Is that your truck"? (Yes) "Is it a diesel"? (Yes) "I'm with the state fuel tax division, mind if I pull a fuel sample"? Knew I was legal so asked what if I say no. He said, "You don't want to do that, causes all kinds of problems". He checked and I was alright; We sat on my tailgate and talked for about an hour (on the public's dollar). Said there was a minimum $1000 state fine and $1000 federal fine for using untaxed fuel in licensed vehicle; also $1000 fine for refusing to allow sampling. I realize that driving is a privledge and not a "right", but it just rubbed me wrong that he could come on private property (in this case the church, but he said it could have just as easily been at my shop) with no evidence that I was doing wrong. He said that the state commissioner of revenue (and employees) has all kinds of enforcement rights that "normal" law officers don't have. Tend to be Libertarian politically; the fellow was very nice, but it just hit me wrong....

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Ben in KY

11-14-2003 13:48:25

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Is ther a dye remover additive for diesel out there ? Just a thought.

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Jonathan

11-14-2003 11:15:09

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Is it legal to use farm fuel in your PU if it has AG plates?.

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Ben in KY

11-14-2003 13:52:18

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Jonathan, 11-14-2003 11:15:09

My take on it is that is is legal if you do not drive it on public roads. Right ? I believe the whole issue is using untaxed fuel on public roads. I remember back when you could get offroad/farm gas. Haven't seen that for many years though.

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buickanddeere

11-14-2003 08:11:29

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

On private property you can tell the man polite no if the fuel is dyed. He needs a warrent and prove probable cause to snoop on private property. Don't tick the inspectors off or they will concentrate on catching you. Human nature controls state employees as well.

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T_Bone

11-13-2003 23:15:17

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Here in AZ you pay the tax up front then apply for a refund at the end of the year. I told the wife I wonder if they'd complain about a 500gal credit on farming my 3a ?...LOL

That is only for off road diesel. Commerical trucks pay a $.08gal extra road tax that "car diesels" don't have to pay, anything under 26k GVWR. They refund this tax when you buy the fuel. Of course alot of travlers don't know this and the station makes the .08gal extra. The law requires the fuel stop to advertise the commerical truck price. Flying J advertises both prices but alot of others don't !

I use ATF all the time in my PSD at 1qt/50gal #2D. In a pint test jar with 10 times that amount of ATF, it just turns a lite orange color from the natural gold color.

Did you also know that you could come home and find "ANY" Federal, State, County, City, employees and "bounty hunters" in your home without a search warrant?

Some Federal law was changed in the early 90's that allows this, I just can't remember the name of it. All they have to say is they heard crys for "help" or any other excuse "I smelled smoke".

Our sherrif was telling about it on TV about this really neat law that a bounty hunter had used. The bounty hunter killed two innocent people and got away with it :(

How? The bail jumper had visited the couple wihtout the couple knowing he was wanted. The bounty hunter assumed the guy was still there!

T_Bone

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Ben in KY

11-14-2003 08:53:36

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to T_Bone, 11-13-2003 23:15:17

Private bounty hunters are not legal in KY. Probably some politician got that passed so the bounty hunters could not come for out of state and get him :)

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paul

11-14-2003 12:51:17

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Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Ben in KY, 11-14-2003 08:53:36

What a mess out laws of 200+ years have become. Some made sense for a short period of time, some should be eternal, and others were just wrong from the get-go.

Maybe we should 'sunset' every single law in this country. Like, phase them all out in 20 years, set up a pecking order.

That would give the politicians something to do, rewrite all the laws. Keep them from making more & more new ones..... Those that don't get rewritten are gone.

--->paul

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Stan TN

11-14-2003 18:59:36

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel? in reply to paul, 11-14-2003 12:51:17

That idea comes up from time to time. Called the "sunset amendment" it wouldn't help much if it didn't prohibit blanket reenactments of expiring laws. Otherwise it'd give the pols something to do and keep them from having to pass new infringments.

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Ben in KY

11-14-2003 13:46:19

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel? in reply to paul, 11-14-2003 12:51:17

One suggesstion, make a constitutional ammendment capping the total number of laws where they are now. and all laws must cover one subject, no combining them. If an new law is dersired an old one must go.

Well off my soapbox..

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T_Bone

11-14-2003 15:26:28

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized die in reply to Ben in KY, 11-14-2003 13:46:19

Now you guys know that we couldn't do that as it would not be a fair ball game. One sided, keep you in the dark is the way they like it. More tax money to be collected that way.

T_Bone

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bob

11-13-2003 21:23:35

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

here in WV DOT watches for notices of farm sales, then set up on the main highway to the sale, on Saturday , no less! You'd think they would look for freight lines or other big users. They are happy to catch small farmer & let bigger users get away.

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Ben in KY

11-14-2003 08:55:23

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to bob, 11-13-2003 21:23:35

As the budget's are bad in most states....we will probably see more energetic enforcement of revenue raising laws.

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Ron 1456

11-13-2003 20:21:34

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

When it comes to using dyed fuel in a vehicle the best rule to follow is just don't do it. We used to use ATF as a fuel conditioner in the trucks but we quit that too. The red color makes it look like you are using some dyed fuel.

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thurlow

11-13-2003 20:34:48

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Ron 1456, 11-13-2003 20:21:34

This state inspector also mentioned that; color from ATF would show as dyed fuel and lead to fine.....I use it as a conditioner in my farm tractors, but Cummins specifically says don't use it in my 5.9 Liter.....

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Taylor Lambert

11-13-2003 19:35:21

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I worked on a job in Alabama and we had 6 10 wheeler dump trucks hauling dirt across the highway and on another job offroad excapt for the crossing the highway. We ran red fuel in the trucks. We had a special steel mat acorss the road to protect it from damage caused by dozers crossing. One day the DOT showed up claiming we had been roading our truck since they crossed the road. They saisd it was 750 dollars a truck with red fuel and 1000 for ll six if we didnt let them check. It was cheaper to take the 1000 dollar fine. the fine was later refunded by the courts when they saw that wer had the road protected and the trucks didnt leave the job

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dhermesc

11-14-2003 06:02:29

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Taylor Lambert, 11-13-2003 19:35:21

You got lucky. We where doing the exact same thing in Kansas and got the book thrown at us. They said they where tagged road vehicles and it didn't matter how they where being used, the presence of the dye was all they needed to prove. Our trucks hardly ever leave the job site so we now have to maintain two fuel sources and pray nobody screws up, second fine is double if I recall correctly.

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11-13-2003 19:28:22

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

It seems that the states will get into their ag fuel checking mode after a rash of fuel thefts from the distributors' tanks (and sold as cheap diesel to the unknowing) or when a few people get caught putting ag diesel into their on the road vehicles. It's real easy sometimes to fill up a pickup tank from the 500 gal farm tank for $1gal instead of driving all the way into town (15-20 miles) and fill up for $1.30 gal, and most of the fuel is used on projects and chores that are off road.

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scott

11-13-2003 17:53:08

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Welcome to the world of commercial vehicles... I own a trucking business and we're stopped all the time for inspections, weight, fuel, etc. etc. etc. WITHOUT any "probable cause"

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Brown Dirt Cowboy

11-14-2003 08:58:29

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to scott, 11-13-2003 17:53:08

Scott seems like anymore just being in a truck is " probable cause". With the states needing revunue we are going to start seeing a lot of this. Tom

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marlowe

11-13-2003 17:03:27

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

they check dump trucks all the time in wi.

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carhartted

11-13-2003 16:50:50

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Here in Alaska there are people who run heating fuel in their pickups. It is not dyed because the dye reaaly screws up the Monitor type oil stoves. You can buy heating oil at the pump but must sign a card saying it will not be used in a vehicle, needless to say it does not always work that way.

Jonathan Fairbanks, AK

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Brad in VA

11-13-2003 16:48:20

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Well I have never fueled both tanks up completly on my truck but I have been over on the farm and been really low on fuel and have run a gallon or two into the truck to get to the pilot in town but never have been checked. My brother in law owns a construction company and he was caught out at the texas road house pumping fuel out of a 100 gallon tank in the bed of his truck into his tanks, cop said as long as he was almost out of fuel and went directly to the fillin station he would let him go. Cops and DOT around here are ok. My father in law owns his own well drilling business and his rig is tagged on the road but is technically used "off road". Him and the other well drillers in the area have been fighting this one for years. DOT watches them tear down off a well and then pulls them over soon as they hit the road. Most rigs use a seperate moter to run the rig and another one to move the truck. So to me they should use off road in one and on road in the other but some rigs use the same motor for both. How do you decide that one??? I think the fuel this is horse sh*t. If you are a farmer and are staying in state you should be able to use off road in your farm trucks but is you are traveling across country you should use on road fuel, after all it is a "interstate" tax!!!! Off my soap box now.....

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Brad in VA again

11-13-2003 16:53:57

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Brad in VA, 11-13-2003 16:48:20

Actually let me back on the box again... This is what has really burned me about it. The fuel guys came down to the farm to fill up the fuel tanks and my grandmother who lives on the farm asked them to fill up her home heating oil tank as well. When the bill came it was two different prices???? She called and asked how come it was the same fuel and came out of the same hose of the same truck. She was outraged when they told her it was taxed different but was the same fuel. That makes no sense to me.

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Jay

11-14-2003 07:38:40

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Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Brad in VA again, 11-13-2003 16:53:57

Yep, you are right - it's the same hose - however, the hose is flushed out. Here the tax is 45.4 cents (state and fed), my hose holds about 20 gallons. If I just put that in with the red without flushing, I just lost $9 for 1 minute of work. The dealer HAS NO CHOICE but to charge you tax for clear fuel, the fed tax is charge to him up front, and in many cases so is the state tax.

We also can't let the red get in the clear (and make a little extra). If a customer would get caught with any dyed in their diesel vehicle, the DOT of whoever can ultimately come back to the dealer (if it was his mistake). It takes only 2 gallons of dyed fuel in 1000 gallons of clear fuel to contaminate the sample.

I have no idea how much of the federal tax goes towards the road system, but here, 13 cents of the 21 cents state tax goes towards the roads.

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scott

11-13-2003 18:13:09

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Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Brad in VA again, 11-13-2003 16:53:57

The fuel is no different... It's pretty simple actually, the reason it is taxed for road use is to pay for roads/bridges etc.. If you are burning it in your furnace or farm tractor you are not using public streets, therefore they can't tax you. The problem of course is that a very small fraction of the money is actually used for streets like its supposed to be. So we have to beat ourselves up over bad roads so our congress men and women can get a(nother) "cost of living" raise. My trucking buisness burnes about 9000 gallons a year "donating" approx. $1900.00 in fuel tax money to my state, and approx. $2160 to feds., not to mention the $1200 state reg., $1050 over-weight permit, $550.00 fed excise tax, and $9000.00 in insurance!!!.... For ONE truck. There are thousands of these trucks on the local roads paying the same thing and 90 % of the bridges in our state (MA) are weight restricted and we can't use them anyway!!!!! Buy a tri-axle dump... you'll get rich. (ha ha ha)

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mikeinmo

11-13-2003 16:41:34

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I agree that you shouldn't burn off road fuel in your pickup. I've heard of several guys getting checked at the sale barn and got a $250 fine as a result. The part that gripes me about fuel tax is that the city street department in town burns off road fuel in all of their diesel dump trucks and pickups. I know this as a fact because a good friend of mine used to work for them. I also know the guy that hauls fuel to their tanks and he is saying the same thing.

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Jose

11-13-2003 17:03:39

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to mikeinmo, 11-13-2003 16:41:34

If it is a government entity using dyed fuel it really doesn't matter too much. They don't pay fuel taxes anyway or sales taxes either, at least not in this city. :)

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Mike

11-13-2003 16:17:54

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I got stopped at a rest area in Indiana last month to check my tank. Pulled a sample, said thanks and said I could go on. Fortunately,I had just filled up about 50 miles before. I had come out of Md.with 2 tanks of farm fuel in my pickup. Must have been my lucky day.

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11-13-2003 16:16:40

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Been losing power all day from the wind and the snow squalls. That dyed kero looks pretty in my lamps. I hope I don't have to walk to the store, they might stop and fine me for having it on the road. HaHa

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Robert in W. Mi

11-13-2003 16:15:20

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I bought my first diesel Pickup in 1982. I've driven all over the U.S. with different diesels since then, and i've NEVER been checked.

I've made my mind up long ago, if they show up here at the farm, i won't refuse to let them check for red fuel, "but", i WILL refuse to let them on my property. They will have to wait untill i pull out on the road to check me!! OR, go get the law and some papers to let them on!!

BTW, i never use red fuel in my pu's!

Robert

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RJ-Az

11-13-2003 15:44:48

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

State of Arizona MVD pulled a check on workers at the Phelps Dodge mine in Morenci a couple weeks ago checking for current tags, out of state plates and dipped diesel tanks on pickup trucks. I've heard of them doing this at the sale barn in Willcox also. Heck I got a notice on my car in a State Highway Drpt. employee parking lot of expired tags (I had forgotten to put on the sticker). And then this guy has the nerve to expect me to service his car!!!

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Bob G

11-13-2003 15:40:45

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I knew one guy that had a tube in his tank that contained colorless diesel, and when they would check his tank that was all they got. The rest of his tank had colored fuel in it. He did it for years before retiring.

bob G

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Daryl

11-13-2003 15:26:17

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I understand they check a lot of trucks around stockyards. I cleaned the bottom of my farm diesel fuel tank out last Winter and that stuff they color the fuel with settles to the bottom and is some real NASTY looking stuff. Looks like it would plug up fuel filters, but I've never had any problems yet.

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Indydirtfarmer

11-13-2003 15:21:10

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

I was at a farm toy show last fall. The Indiana D.O.T. showed up, and started "sticking" anyone that had farm tags, wheather it was gas or diesel. They came inside, and read off several plate #'s, asking the owners to report to their vehicles. They made them unlock their "gas caps" and tested them. They found a couple of "offenders", that were regular attendee's of toy shows. They haven't been seen since. Rumor has it they can't afford to go to any more shows. BIG BROTHER is watching..... .....John

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Allan

11-13-2003 15:04:21

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Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to thurlow, 11-13-2003 14:53:27

Thru,

I wonder what the fine is for airing him out a little?

$50 assult and battery?

Allan

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Jon

11-13-2003 15:53:45

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Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Allan, 11-13-2003 15:04:21

Wood the battery be positive or negative. hi hi

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Rufus

11-13-2003 16:46:27

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Re: Re: Re: Been checked for colorized diesel??? in reply to Jon, 11-13-2003 15:53:45

Who cares??

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