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Diesel fuel types smoke

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Lynn Kasdorf- L

07-08-2003 09:46:41

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I recently got 2 Case 580B diesel backhoes, and since I am new to diesels, I have questions about the fuel.

First, both machines emit visible smoke until they are fully warmed up. One has a recently rebuilt engine, so I don't think this is an oil burning issue. The smoke is light gray- not blueish like oil smoke, nor black like i've seen from diesels under load.

I am still running the fuel that came in the tanks, which is off-road diesel. I wonder if on-road diesel burns any cleaner?

I'll be using my backhoe very little- just intermittent farm use, so probably the cost difference between on-road and off-road diesel will not amount to much in my case. Is one type of fuel better for the machine than the other?

Also, since a tank of fuel may last me 6 months (after I finish grading and building my tractor barn), should I put some sort of fuel stabalizer in?

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christopher

06-07-2004 02:49:59

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

hi all

i'm in qld australia and dont have the problem of dyes in fuel. it boils down to who has the cheapest fuel. here you can take your drum down to the servo and fill up which means that you dont have to pay the fuel tax.

you can get it delivered and then claim the fuel tax back from the gov. works out to be about $0.08c/l

i have a diesel 4x4 and nuffield 4/65 and depending on i am doing depends on which one gets the fuel.

anyway have a good day.

christopher

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LARRY

07-08-2003 18:56:32

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

I'VE BEEN IN THE EXCAVATING BUSINESS FOR MANY YEARS AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING BUT DIESEL POWERED LOADERS, EXCAVATORS, DOZERS, ETC. MAKES NO SENSE TO PAY THE FEDS TAX, WICH YOUI ARE LEGALLY EXEMPT FROM. ALL DIESEL ENGINES "SMOKE" AT START UP. THEY WORK OFF COMPRESSION, WHEN THAY ARE COLD, THEY ARE BLOWING UNBURNED FUEL. THE WORST THING YOU CAN DO TO ANY ENGINE, ESPECIALLY DIESELS, IS TO WORK THEM WITHOUT WARM UP. YOU PUT 40% OF WEAR ON THE ENGINE AT START UP. THAT'S WHY WE USE ENGINE PRE OILERS AND HEATERS ON THE BIG STUFF, EVEN IN SUMMER TIME. IF YOU ARE IN A COLD CLIMATE, YOUR FUEL DEALER WILL MIX AN ADDITIVE (USUALLY #1) WITHOUT YOU SAYING ANYTHING. IF YOU BUY AT A GAS STATION, MAKE SURE IT'S ONE THAT SELLS A GOOD AMOUNT OF DIESEL. BEST TO YOU, LARRY

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REDMAN

07-08-2003 17:25:19

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

use the off road,here in the states on-road is also known as low sulfur,sulfer is a lubrication helper for the fuel pump and injectors.we have a 2001 stx 440 case ih and that smokes when you start it,don't worry about it,if it gets cold enough it will probably miss a little too.I'm not trying to start a war but if anyone thinks that turning the pump up don't make more power,they are sleeping awake,and i'd like to invite them to prove it with a dyno.my $.02 worth red

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Jerry L /az

07-08-2003 16:24:53

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

There is no difference between on/off road fuel except the dye. that is how the goverment tells if you have paid you'r road use taxes, try getting caught with a dye in you'r tank on the hiways and see what the fine can be. a diesel will smok a bit untill it warms up after that should have a light brown haze. some people think if they crank up the infector pump they will have more power. not really just burning more fuel. #2 fuel will jell in extreme cold, to keep from jelling you can use an additive or mix with #1 fuel or home heating fuel which is #1 and cheaper than additives, I would use an additive to keep the fungus from growing in the tank if stored for long periods of time ..... .hope this helps oh if you do get a jelled tank just pull it inside a heated garage or shop it will thaw overnight..... ..... .Jer

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Shane

07-08-2003 17:31:26

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Re: Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Jerry L /az, 07-08-2003 16:24:53

Actually, if you turn up the injection pump you will get more horse power. They may burn more fuel too but indeed do crank out more power.

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red-n-green

07-08-2003 16:21:10

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

The farm use fuel is a lower sulfer fuel. The stabilizer may not be needed but you should always keep the fuel tank on a diesel full. If you don't keep the tank full, you will get a good amount of condensation. Water in diesel fuel will gel in the filters and cause the tank to rust. I try to refill my tanks every time I use my tractor. But I can easily go through 50 gallons a day when working mine hard (89 gallon tank). Also about the cost of on and off road fuel. My delivery price was $1.01 for off road fuel a couple weeks ago. At the pump for road fuel it is at least $1.40. Don't worry about the smoke, most diesels older than a few years old smoke at start up.

Jay

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David UK

07-09-2003 15:26:14

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Re: Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to red-n-green, 07-08-2003 16:21:10

Grey/white smoke is normally caused by vapourised but unburnt fuel. It happens at startup until engine is warm enough to burn everything properly but also can happen if fuel injection occurs too late. Advancing the injection pump timing can help. There's no guarantee it was right to begin with. A lot of pumps are removed and just stuck back on without being timed at all. Also, on old engines backlash builds up in pump drivetrain and that can throw timing off too. You could try advancing pump timing a little to see if it helps. Correct way is with proper setting gauges but turning pump slightly and listening to engine and watching effect on smoke emission can also be a good guide. (If it starts knocking its too far advanced.) I'd reckon to get it set it as far advanced as I could without it starting to knock under load.

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Barnyard Rebel

07-08-2003 14:20:49

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

The difference between on road and off road fuel is that on road fuel has less sulfer and off road fuel has a red dye.
The fact that your backhoe(s) smoke a little when they start, greyish black, is pretty normal, expecially as they, the motors, ware and age. I wouldnt be conserned. The injector pump may just be turned up, if that is the case, your better off, because you will have more horsepower. Good luck

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rustyfarmall

07-08-2003 12:08:58

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that there is any differance in off-road fuel, and on-road fuel, except that the off-road fuel has a red dye added to it so that the feds. will know if you are paying your taxes or not.

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VADAVE

07-08-2003 11:50:32

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

I agree you do not have to worry about stabilizer. If you don't use the tractors a lot and have fuel sitting thenm you do have to worry about the organisms. something like alge, that will grow and then plug your fuel filter. There are additatives that will kill it. I buy mine from a Diesel place in Springfield Va, can't remember the name of the place or the product at the moment.

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WjW

07-08-2003 11:01:37

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Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to Lynn Kasdorf- Leesburg, V, 07-08-2003 09:46:41

Just my 2 cents

Stabilizer would not be needed. Diesel fuel and gasoline are quite different animals and the needs of stalizer products in gasoline are not present with #2 fuel

OFf road/ on road will burn the same in your machine there is nothing for you to gain by burning highway fuel in your tractor. There are those that believe you get more power from off road fuel, I have my doubts.

Go with whatever is easiest for you.

If you are happy with the performance of the machine don't sweat a little smoke. There are a lot of possible reasons, fuel turned up, injector or pump wear, ect, ect .But if you like the performance and they start well, and they don't use more oil or fuel than you like, and you have good maintance on them they will likely last your lifetime for the amount of hours you intend to use them for. WjW

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RAB

07-08-2003 12:23:32

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Re: Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to WjW, 07-08-2003 11:01:37

In the UK 'off road diesel' is exactly the same as 'road' fuel. Well not quite - they take the 'road' diesel and add some red dye to it to make 'off road'. They also charge much less for the 'off road' as it is exempt from excise duty. I would think the same applies in the US.
Your situation in the US is a little different from the UK in that, in winter, your lower temperatures mean you require a slightly altered mix to prevent waxing. To obtain the correct characteristics shorter chain-length hydrocarbons are used in the blend.

Calorific value of fuel is dependant on carbon chain lengths of the fuel components molecules and the winter, or non-waxing, fuels will have a slightly lower energy content than the fuel which waxes at the higher temperature.
You need to be careful which blend your tank of fuel happens to be - if it has to withstand winter temperatures without waxing problems!
It is also better to keep the tank full over winter as there will be less chance of condensation problems in the tank.
Regards, RAB

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07-09-2003 09:52:09

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Re: Re: Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to RAB, 07-08-2003 12:23:32

#2 Dyed Diesel is also used in place of #2 fuel oil to heat homes in the US.

The sulfer content probably changes across the country with the rural areas less strict. Once you get near the cities it's all the same except for the dye. Exause pipe or smoke stack they still regulate the sulfer content as well as other items.

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David UK

07-09-2003 15:29:56

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Re: Re: Re: Re: diesel fuel types smoke in reply to ed, 07-09-2003 09:52:09

Further to my other posting above, turning up fuel delivery of injection pump will normally cause black smoke.

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