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Why did steam tractors die out

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Ol Chief

02-16-2003 21:07:51




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Funny thing this subject came up.Iam not sure what year The IRON MEN ALBUM had an article on a newly built steam tractor with several pictures and the inventors name and address.I believe that was between 1960 and 1966 when Rev.Elmer Ritzman was founder and owner of the magazine.If one of you Oldtimers have archives of those years it would help if you could look into this question. Any way Iam now a retired marine Chief Engineer and now farmer full time.At the time I owned a farm and was much interested in the tractor,so I went to California for a visit with the inventor.This gentleman was a retired Engineer from Buick engine division of G.M.He had perfected and built an four cylinder poppet valve condensing engine complete with a compact watertube, high pressure boiler ( 2500 PSI to ASME CodeSpec.) and passed the national code requirements and test.THE BOILER,fitted neatly in place of the engine. I believe the the original radiator was used as the condensor and the engine was installed in place of the transmission which had been removed from the original tractor.There was A boiler feed pump and hot well to collect and and recycle tne condensate.This entire set up was installed on a Cockshut tractor frame and differential.This fellow had perfected a means of collecting the blow by condensate but would not tell me how this was accomplished.He actually poured water in the crankcase fill pipe in my presence.It ran out clean w/out a trace of oil and returned to the hotwell.He allowed me to drive the tractor.It was soundless.Reverse was accomplished by merely sliding the camshaft backward which changed the valve motion to reverse or by manipulating the throttle while in that mode you could instantly stop the tractor. I do not know what horse power or torque was developed but he said if more power was required he would simply bolt on another engine and use eight cylinders.I believe it produced 24 HP on 600 lb. steam pressure.However there is almost no limit to power of a steam engine except the strength of materials and piston speed.I rue the day that I did not purchase this fine machine for $2500.Steam up time to working pressure was around 5 to 10 minutes if not in a hurry. I turned all the information I had to a rep. of Case Co .but can only think he never passed it up to higher management. If any one is further interested in this subject e mail me.

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blah

08-19-2005 09:32:11




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
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Chris

02-17-2003 22:00:10




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
Chief,
Thanks for writing the letter. I find the idea facinating. Do you have any idea what became of the tractor? I wondered what he was using for fuel but expect it was propane. I suspect that the large manufacturers have so much tied up in internal combustion engine development that they can not afford to look at altenatives yet. But with fuel prices going in the direction they are it won't be long before alternative energy sources are in the forefront again. I remember a story about Stanley having the bugs worked out of his steamer but it being too late as the gas engine had come to be the major source of power for autos. Just because everyone does it does not make it the best!!

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Sid

02-17-2003 20:18:47




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
I find this interesting. Would this tractor run all day long as long as a fire was kept going without having to stop and replace water?



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Ol Chief

02-17-2003 22:38:38




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Sid, 02-17-2003 20:18:47  
The tractor utilized a closed cycle steam system,wherein all steam used was condensed back into distilled water and returned to a hotwell for readmission to the boiler.Piston blowby condensate was recovered from the crankpan by some means and also returned to the hotwell,then picked up by the feed pump and returned to the express A type boiler. I have no info.nor idea how oil was eliminated or separated from condensate.The designer was obviously not willing to discuss that invention with me.Iwould presume that he held several patents pending on his devices.A small extra feedwater tank was on board for makeup to feed in case of steam leakage to atmosphere.When I saw the there was no steam leak.I believe you could run all day,without adding water.

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Ol Chief

02-17-2003 22:37:44




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Sid, 02-17-2003 20:18:47  
The tractor utilized a closed cycle steam system,wherein all steam used was condensed back into distilled water and returned to a hotwell for readmission to the boiler.Piston blowby condensate was recovered from the crankpan by some means and also returned to the hotwell,then picked up by the feed pump and returned to the express A type boiler. I have no info.nor idea how oil was eliminated or separated from condensate.The designer was obviously not willing to discuss that invention with me.Iwould presume that he held several patents pending on his devices.A small extra feedwater tank was on board for makeup to feed in case of steam leakage to atmosphere.When I saw the there was no steam leak.I believe you could run all day,without adding water.

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Ol Chief

02-17-2003 22:37:27




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Sid, 02-17-2003 20:18:47  
The tractor utilized a closed cycle steam system,wherein all steam used was condensed back into distilled water and returned to a hotwell for readmission to the boiler.Piston blowby condensate was recovered from the crankpan by some means and also returned to the hotwell,then picked up by the feed pump and returned to the express A type boiler. I have no info.nor idea how oil was eliminated or separated from condensate.The designer was obviously not willing to discuss that invention with me.Iwould presume that he held several patents pending on his devices.A small extra feedwater tank was on board for makeup to feed in case of steam leakage to atmosphere.When I saw the there was no steam leak.I believe you could run all day,without adding water.

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Ol Chief

02-17-2003 19:04:04




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
My rebutal:IGUESS I was mistaken in wasting time typing something I thought answered the earlier interest question on the demise of steam power. I really thought my story was going to be posted under the previous quiery.In stead I seem to have been run aground by a few guys wanting to show how very hi tech their knowledge is.Having spent 40 years as Chief Engineer on all types of power and propulsion plants You might imagine that I did not just fall out of bed.I am well familiar with the efficiency of various power plants and did not take issue with those points.I did not state that the designer hauled around a wood wagon or coal bunker but thought that most intelligent folk could figure out that it was oil or gas fired with a closed system condensing engine. I tried to write a general interest story illustrating that it is indeed possible to install a steam engine in a compact package in a tractor.I am an old timer but not a smart elleck.With all of this hi tech knowledge why read a paper devoted to antiques.

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evielboweviel

02-18-2003 05:38:33




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief , 02-17-2003 19:04:04  
Thanks for what you have written. I read these boards for new knowledge not to critize what others have written. I do like the different view points as long as somebody is not being slamned for their spelling or beliefs. I personally would like for you to write more as you feel like it. my 2cents worth.



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Kelly C

02-17-2003 12:16:10




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
I dont really know any thing about steam power. But has any one ever tried using a liquid that converts to vapor at a much lower temp than water?
Running that in a closed loop system.
I think almost all gasses expand when heated. Should be one out there that does it much more effecient than water.



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Jon Hagen..........steam engine without water

02-17-2003 16:22:06




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Kelly C, 02-17-2003 12:16:10  
30+ years ago I remember stories in Popular science or popular mechanics magazine about a fellow named Minto who was trying to perfect a modern steam car. As I recall he was using Freon as the working fluid in his closed system engine.
The idea was that Freon with it's low boiling point made it a lot easier and more efficient to transfer heat to or from the working fluid. As I recall he was having problems with Freon attacking some metals in his engine,and having trouble getting a condenser to cool/condense the Freon in a size small enough to fit a car.

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Hal/WA

02-18-2003 22:19:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Jon Hagen..........steam engine without water, 02-17-2003 16:22:06  
If I remember correctly, Bill Lear, of Lear Jet fame, spent a lot of time trying to build an efficient closed system steam engine. But I never heard that he was successful in making one work and be economically competative.

If someone could figure out a way to capture all of the heat energy of internal or external combustion and turn it into work, they would really have something. But even the most efficient intercooled turbo diesels still waste much of the energy in the fuel out the exhaust and through the cooling system. Gas engines are even less efficient and most steam designs only use a very small fraction of the fuel's energy.

I am amazed at the improvements in fuel economy in modern cars. But this improvement comes at a high cost: the high tech electronic controls cost a lot of money and it is not possible for the backyard mechanic to fix, or even find lots of the problems that come up.

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Mike D.

02-17-2003 08:45:30




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
Are there any pictures that you could share of this retrofit Cockshutt?



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Ol Chief

02-17-2003 19:41:07




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Mike D., 02-17-2003 08:45:30  
Answer for Mike D. Mike the only place I know of to find a picture of the tractor I wrote about would be in the archive copies of the original Iron Men Album. That magazine has been bought out by another concern and is still being produced by Ogden Publications Inc. 1503SW 42nd Street Topeka.KS 66609-1265.They also produce Gas Engine magazine which is interesting to tractor buffs.They could find the article in an issue somewhere between 1959-60 up to1968-9

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G Taylor

02-17-2003 06:35:24




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 Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Ol Chief, 02-16-2003 21:07:51  
Descaling boilers, pressure testing vesels and relief valves $$$, freezing damage in winter, handling coal/solid fuel and having to earn a boiler ticket for the operator. Emmisions concerns now too.



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Bob M

02-17-2003 08:26:41




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 Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to G Taylor, 02-17-2003 06:35:24  
Add to the above issues the inherent poor fuel economy of the steam engine! Under IDEAL conditions the thermodynamic efficiency (% of energy in the fuel that appears as mechanical energy at the output shaft) of an open cycle steam engine is about 2 - 3%. In the real world with imperfect combustion, boiler scaling, sloppy operation, etc. effiency will be less. A gas tractor on the other hand can have a real world thermodynamic effiency of 6% - 8%; a diesel 10 - 12% or so. Means that a steamer requires between 3 and 6 times the BTU input (from coal, wood, fuel oil or whatever...) of an equivalent internal combustion powered tractor.

Back when gas was 25 cents and fuel oil was a dime, poor fuel efficiency helped doom the steamer. Railroads figured this out very quickly in the late 40's. With gas and fuel oil rapidly approaching $2 the argument is now even more compelling!

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G Taylor

02-17-2003 09:40:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to Bob M, 02-17-2003 08:26:41  
The figures I've seen are about 25-35% efficiency for a gasoline engine 30 to 40% for a diesel. A low pressure saturated steam nuclear plant with 30-33% and a advanced candu 700x with 40-45%. The latest combined cycle gas turbines and gas or oil "conventional" power plants can exceed the 50% efficiency mark. The steam engine and locomotive engines are way low because they don't recover condensate heat, the condensate it's self and the relatively small size of the machine. My gas turbine generator struggles to make 20-25% efficiency due to it's small size and single stage axial flow design with a limited expansion ratio. Trade off for small size, light weight and simple design. The main problem is the energy transport medium/conversion. A full 33% of the initial energy input goes out the condensers to cool the steam back to liquid. We also loose in the intermediate cycles turning heat into pressurized steam, converting pressurized steam into shaft torque and on a generator electrical losses if used. Room temp super conductors would help.Add to this energy to run boiler feed pumps, condensate extraction pumps,condenser pumps, air blowers in thermal and heat transport pumps with nuclear. Tough to beat a well built turbo diesel matched to it's application running at steady state at or near full rated power.Plus the price, simplicity, ease to operate and compact size/weight per HP.

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Bob M

02-17-2003 18:19:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to G Taylor, 02-17-2003 09:40:52  
Yeah – for the "ideal" cycle efficiencies for gas/diesel engines your numbers are correct. But after you deduct for real world inefficiencies like internal heat loss, working fluid pumping (throttling) loss, mechanical friction losses, auxiliary drive losses (cooling fan, oil pump, water pump), combustion inefficiencies (incomplete combustion due to quenching) etc, what's left to actually do work will be somewhere between 8% - 15% of the original energy content of the fuel – perhaps a bit higher for today's most efficient turbocharged/intercooled diesels.

You are also correct about efficiencies of combined cycle central station plants. However these plants are fiendishly complex, and must operate at extreme temperatures/pressures to achieve this level of efficiency (= extremely high cost!). And they require careful operation and maintenance to sustain this efficiency. Contrast that to a reciprocating, non-condensing steam engine fed saturated steam from a hand-fired 125 psi boiler, filled with dirty pond water, and operated by an "engineer" who has at best only a rudimentary understanding of the thermodynamics of efficient steam plant operation. These would be fairly typical steam tractor operating conditions – and do not favor fuel efficiency!

Another problem with steamers: The consequences of inattentive operation. If steamer is not properly maintained and operated, a boiler explosion is a real threat. And explosion will destroy the machine (and it's operator!) and usually results in dramatic collateral damage as well. (Witness the tragedy involving a steamer at a show in Marion OH a couple years ago.) Compare that to the consequences of an inattentive operation of an internal combustion tractor. Generally the worst that will happen here is the tractor simply quits running, and perhaps a few expensive parts must be replaced. Insurance companies would throw a fit and terminate farm coverage quickly if every farm were to have steamer or two on the premises!

Bottom line is I like the look, sound and smell of a steamer as much as anyone. However is the agricultural steam engine is a technology whose time has clearly passed!

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Jon Hagen.......Steam trains in China

02-17-2003 16:35:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Why did steam tractors die out in reply to G Taylor, 02-17-2003 09:40:52  
A few years ago National Geographic Magazine did a story about how China is still building steam trains. Said the reason was that China has large reserves of coal,but little oil. Even with the bad efficiency China considers it worthwile because of their fuel situation. I hear that many factories in china also use coal power with terrible air pollution in there cities. Has anyone else noticed bubble packed made in China products that have a terrible coal smoke odor when the plastic pack is cut open ??

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