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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

OT - Electric Windmill Generators

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Howard H.

12-04-2006 07:16:14




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They've just put up a string of 16 electricity generating windmills near here. They've been up for several months now - and seem to be in production.

But it is curious that there are always some that are shut down. At first, there were always some pickups buzzing around working on them, but lately no one is ever around.

Surely they are not shutting down because they are producing too much electricity... As much as those things cost, I'd think they'd want them in production every minute...

Are they that much trouble to keep running??

Just curious,
Howard

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John A.

12-04-2006 19:21:30




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Howard H., 12-04-2006 07:16:14  
Howard, Are you at liberty to say how much one of those big wind-charger windmills cost?
Also how much lease ground rents for and how long? How many acres / windmill?
IF NOT, can you fire off an email to me and not do it publicly.
I would like to know for future reference. There are surenoough a ton of them down near Snyder and Sweetwater. Look forward to hearing from you.
Later,
John A.

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Howard H.

12-04-2006 19:41:54




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to John A., 12-04-2006 19:21:30  

Hey John A -

My sense is they run on the order of $1.2 to $2 million per mill. But I don"t know if they are currently still that much, or if that"s before they started getting so popular.

I don"t know on the rental rates - but have heard it depends strongly on where you are at...

They are fun to watch, though!

Howard



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John A.

12-04-2006 20:07:38




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Howard H., 12-04-2006 19:41:54  
Howard,..... ...COOL, Thanks.
Later,
John A.



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Txsprigger

12-05-2006 09:38:52




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to John A., 12-04-2006 20:07:38  
John, check this out



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Catfish Stew

12-04-2006 17:02:44




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Howard H., 12-04-2006 07:16:14  
Sounds like swms301 is onto it!! I think windmill power might be a little less economical because of the expense involved to build the facility and maintain it versus the power output. Kinda like driving ten miles to get a free gallon of gas. Coal and NatGas and such are expensive but you get alot of bang for your buck. Could be that the utility built the plant for tax credits or some other type incentive program. If we assume that the power is more expensive to produce than other types it would mean that the utility would only use it for peak power times. That is just my opinion!! Have a good one!!

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swms301

12-04-2006 07:46:39




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Howard H., 12-04-2006 07:16:14  
Isn't it obvious? If they ran all of the windmills it would use up all the wind! I've seen the same condition and wondered the same thing. The wind power is more expensive for some reason (at least here in NM) and you pay a premium for the "blue power" on your bill if you choose that option. Best guess is that since the conventional power plants run at a steady output to provide base level power they only run the windmills on an as needed basis. That's my guess.

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ldj1002

12-04-2006 19:38:21




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to swms301, 12-04-2006 07:46:39  
Now, how in the world can you get wind power at your home by paying a premium? I'm pretty sure the power company doesn't put up two sets of wires, one wind power and one all the rest. Sounds like a sham to me.



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swms301

12-05-2006 07:56:50




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to ldj1002, 12-04-2006 19:38:21  
Not sure how they figure the premium. When we saw it cost more we didn't pursue the issue any further. Assume that PNM gets windpower electricity into the system as needed and available, and you get what comes through the wires. I think the sign up for "wind power" was just a feel good thing. The wind farms are 100+ miles from our bigger population centers so the transmission costs may also be a factor. Electricity is not really my baillywick (sp?).

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jimmiebutte100

12-04-2006 13:00:10




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to swms301, 12-04-2006 07:46:39  
STRANGE!!! I always thought it was cheaper to produce electric from the wind mills over other ways. I've thought I'd like to have a wind mill to produce my own elect. but never saw one that could be used by an indevideual(sp?),has anyone ever seen one for home use? Jim in N M



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buickanddeere

12-04-2006 21:06:06




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 More $$$ Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to jimmiebutte100, 12-04-2006 13:00:10  
Wind power costs more because the expenses are higher and the units only run at an average of 24% capacity around here. If the country only had "wind power" you would spend a majority of time in the dark. Around here the locals were "environmentalists" until wind mills were proposed on their neighbor’s property. Once they had to look at a 1.6 Mw windmill, all of a sudden they were all concerned about bird strikes etc. The "bunny huggers" canceled 1/3 of the proposed wind power in Bruce County via being n.i.m.b.'s .

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frankiee

12-05-2006 15:04:33




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 Bruce County?? in reply to buickanddeere, 12-04-2006 21:06:06  
OT- But that "Bruce County" sounds familiar.
I work at the "Bruce" as an operator.
I live close in Owen Sound



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buickanddeere

12-05-2006 15:27:19




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  Yup, Uncle Duncan's hoard of Scotsmen Re: Bruce C in reply to frankiee, 12-05-2006 15:04:33  
Frankiee. Same Bruce County. Seems to be a whack of Canadians on this site. Probably seen you around somewhere. I'm at both the A & B plant tinkering with the Universal Delivery Machine or Mini-Slar. Sometimes a little Cigar, Scrape and SFCR as well.



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paul

12-04-2006 19:43:07




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to jimmiebutte100, 12-04-2006 13:00:10  
There are 100's of them south & west of me in Minnesota & into Iowa. In fact they are openning a blade-making plant in a town west of me because so many more are going up. GE is the common head in them, I understand availability of those heads is the limiting factor in building more. The windmill costs a million or so.

Land lease I don't know for sure, but I keep hearing there isn't anyone refusing the offer. It depends so much on location, where the winds are channeled by land features. The 'Buffalo Ridge' of sw Minnesota has what they need for wind speeds.

Lots of smaller individual owned mills went up 5 years ago. Lot of them fell down since. Of late another round of better units is going up again. These cost $60-100,000 or so. Smaller units just don't pay.

The problem is, you still need the lines from the power co. You use them for the 'battery bank'. You feed power into the lines (metered at wholesale rates) when the wind blows, and draw power from the lines (at retail rates) when the wind doesn't blow. To match your power to the same clock rate & all that the power co is using takes some hardware, as well as the dual meters, and a safety disconnect so you don't push power into the lines when the power is off & some lineman is working on them. All these controls cost some $$$, and so a little weak windmill won't ever pay off that expense.

There are govt programs to help you with costs, but there is the usual red tape as well, and some power cos are dead set against the whole idea, and some areas the power lines are running full so no room for your mill generation to be added, and so on.

If you cut the lines & want to go it alone with your windmill as only power source, then you have _the_ battery issue. Batteries aren't that good, takes big $$$ to set up power storage with inverter & all & a lot of overhead & matenence $$$ to keep it working. Hard to make a setup to provide 100 amps for a typical small farm - the overhead gets real $$$ high, but much of the time you are only pulling 10 amps so most investment is wasted... Always going to be a low wind week or 2 that requires an engine generator which adds $$$$. You'll spend $50,000 setting up your own dependable system, plus a fair amount of gas to run the generator.....

Can get into it for $5000 or so, but you won't produce much power, just a hobby for a couple light bulbs. Can be fun, we all spend money on worse things. :)

Power from wind is a squared deal, so double the wind speed & you get 4x the power. Producing electricity from wind has _ALL_ to do with location, location, location..... .

--->Paul

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Gerald J.

12-04-2006 22:46:32




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to paul, 12-04-2006 19:43:07  
Actually wind power is cubed, not squared. Double the wind speed and you get 8 times the power.

Gerald J.



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paul

12-05-2006 02:06:15




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Gerald J., 12-04-2006 22:46:32  
D'oh!

Yup.

--->Paul



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buickanddeere

12-05-2006 15:29:24




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to paul, 12-05-2006 02:06:15  
Power is inceased as a square of the swept area dia. Blade tip speed gets awful fast when upsizing.



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Blue3992

12-04-2006 20:18:04




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to paul, 12-04-2006 19:43:07  
That was a really informative post--thanks Paul!



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Howard H.

12-05-2006 11:41:16




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Blue3992, 12-04-2006 20:18:04  

Yes - thanks for the comments.

Dad said when he was growing up years ago out here in West Texas, they had a little wind charger for the house - the prop was about 7 feet across. It had a set of glass jars with acid in them for some sort of battery system...

At night, the wind would die down and the light would fade to barely burning - then it would pick back up and it would get bright again...

Amazing to think how "primitive" that seems by today's standards!


HH

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Jim K

12-05-2006 16:08:24




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 Re: OT - Electric Windmill Generators in reply to Howard H., 12-05-2006 11:41:16  
You can tell when the power in your house is from wind power. Put your hand over any wall outlet and if you feel a breese it's wind power.



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