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milling machine calling all macinests

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Jerry L /AZ

11-03-2006 05:21:20




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I have just bought a mill/drill machine its a jet JMD-15 got it all set up going to be my deadicated mill. my question is about the cutter speeds my end mills are colbalt and hss cutters.
I have spent the last two hrs on google looking for a speed chart and got nowhere, the one place that had them I could not copy them. I do have a drill speed chart could I use that for the end mills? if they are different where can I get a chart for the end mills Have a new set of hss mills comeing and don't want to mess them up carbides are out of the buget right now. Any help is welcome Thanks Jer

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Jerry L /AZ

11-04-2006 15:54:16




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
Thank you Everyone; for the replys my memory is returning now that I've read these comments there is a voice in the back of my head that says oh ya I remember that. Anyway just wanted to thank you all and have a good day Jer



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joe fabregas

11-03-2006 17:14:55




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
Unless you're drilling tiny holes set the beast on slow speed and take your time. There's nothing wrong with soft, fine chips unless you're trying to make rate. Like they said, things can happen really fast so going slow gives you more time to react and think things through. I don't think your machine will be too rigid so keep it slow, take light cuts, and don't try to hog too much off. You'll get the feel of it over time. And make sure your set-ups have little chance of moving or flexing, that's when you'll get into trouble. Good luck! joe in ny

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MikeCatthemuseum

11-03-2006 20:49:44




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to joe fabregas, 11-03-2006 17:14:55  
Joe, common misconception is that running slow rpm is better and safer for drilling or milling. Not so. Usual mistake is too slow a speed and too much feed. Running too slow is an invitation for the bit to grab and wring off. Also your surface finish will be very rough.

Walked into the shop to find one of our volunteers trying to turn down a 2" bush hog shaft with the Pacemaker lathe. This is a HUGE lathe with 25hp on tap and a lowest speed of 20rpm. He was at lowest speed trying to be "careful" re-cutting a seal surface and the metal was just kind of ripping off like a cat licking cheese. I told him the spindle speed had nothing to do with being careful and shut the lathe down. He protested greatly as I kicked the speed up to about 150rpms... until he saw the finish improve to a mirror. I got him to the right speed, feed, final dimension and everything else was his department.

Finish quality increases with increasing rpm until the tool fails (and on a lahte you can stave that off by taking extremely light cuts to run nearly double the suggested speed). Run as fast as you can without burning the tool (50-70ft/min in steel with HSS tooling which works out to about 500rpm for a .500" diameter).

It's FEED that breaks endmills, and there is no better way to over-feed than running too slow. if the machine is kind of limber, just take light cuts with slow feeds and let the spindle hum. Burying the endmill more than half it's own diameter in depth and cranking up the feed with low spindle speed is the recipe for breaks. That mill will have a tough time breaking anything over 3/8" without trying, though.

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joe fabregas

11-04-2006 16:12:27




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to MikeCatthemuseum, 11-03-2006 20:49:44  
Slow works for me, of course I don't have anything that will go 20rpm unless it's the lathe in back-gear. If you aren't cranking handles all the time it's real easy to jerk one the wrong way and end up in the vise or a hold-down or table, or the chuck. There are usually several variables going on at the same time while you're trying to concentrate on the task at hand and worry about one of the kids or the car breaking down. My final cuts are usually real fine and wispy but then I'm doing something for me and not trying to get the most out of the machine or make a buck. If you have no-one to work with you and no training I still vote for slow till you get a feel for what you're doing. I have this phobia about the clunk hitting a chuck makes or having to be reminded every time I have to look at a chunk out of a vise or table. Sorry to step on toes. Regards, joe in ny

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MikeCatthemuseum

11-05-2006 22:03:14




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to joe fabregas, 11-04-2006 16:12:27  
Joe, this has nothing to do with stepping on toes, it's just learning how to use your machine properly. Moving slow on the handwheels? Absolutely. Running at 200rpm with a 1/2" cutter is counter-productive unless you are working stainless or some other fairly hard or tough material (in titanium you might be down at 70rpm and pushing it). This is not from a time per piece job-shop point of view, this is just proper tool surface speed. You are no less likely to hit the vise or go the wrong direction with the spindle running at 10 or 10,000rpms. Spindle speed has nothing to do with being careful.

The object here is to remove the metal at a speed that lets the cutting tool shear cleanly instead of scraping the metal off. It produces less load on the cutter in that way, for one. Also consider this... your cutter makes two turns for 1/16" of feed or runs at a speed where it makes eight turns in that same 1/16". Obviously the cutter running faster is going to be under less load as four times the cutting edges are removing the metal, taking much smaller bites.

Try this, put a hunk of scrap in the mill (or lathe). Start a cut with a 1/2 or 3/8" endmill at lowest speed, go a little ways and stop. Now without changing depth of cut or feed rate, go up the next speed. Keep this up until the chips begin to turn blue and look at how the finish improves and also note how much better and smoother the machine seems to cut at the higher speed.

Not trying to beat you about the head and shoulders, just trying to show you a better way to do things that will improve your abilities and make your work look a lot more professional.

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MikeCatthemuseum

11-03-2006 16:25:46




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
Quick rule of thumb for HSS cutters in ordinary unhardened steel is .500" diam=500rpm. This means 1000rpm for .250" and 2000rpm for .125". You can use this on a mill, drill press, or lathe. It will get you in the ballpark. For aluminum, quadruple the rpm (which is why it is so easy to break a very small drill bit in aluminum on the typical drill press), brass will do wll at double the rpm.

I use HSS almost exclusively, and once I pick up my new Ebay tool and Cutter grinder next week, I'll probably be about 99.99% HSS or cobalt.

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Easy1

11-03-2006 08:47:15




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
I would get a Machinist's Handbook. There are some good machining forums on the web, too. Have fun!



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JA in Va

11-03-2006 06:43:00




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
Jerry, While I can respect your desire to not mess
your new end mills keep in mind that most
machine shops think of them as consumables.The
previous posts gave you some good advice but
in the end they will need to be replaced or reground.While cutter speed and feed rates
are important to tool life so are rigidity in
your setups especially if you use carbide. If you"ve little or no experiance at machine
work please be very careful.Try to find someone
that has some background in the field to advise
and teach you.I have spent over thirty years
in machine shops and tried to keep an eye out
for the new guys.Things can happen real fast.
Dodging flying parts,broken cutters and chuck
wrenchs is not fun.I"m not trying to scare you
but machine tools have no brain or conscience
so be careful.JA in Va

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dr.sportster

11-03-2006 06:40:02




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
I am not a machinist but I do have a Bridgeport.Take my advice for whatever its worth.1 You are not in a hurry when making a part so the blue chips dont have to be flying.2Ask yourself does it have to be steel or is aluminum ok for this part.3 Use a flycutter for roughing a part and you can resharpen the tool bits on the grinder.4 Never let your expensive mills get too close to clamps.[Most of my mills became broken from a stupid move not from wearing out] The book MACHINE SHOP TRADE SECRETS opened alot of doors for me and paid for itself.40 bucks at Barnes and Noble.Have fun, wear saftey glasses.

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Butch(OH)

11-03-2006 07:28:30




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to dr.sportster, 11-03-2006 06:40:02  
[Most of my mills became broken from a stupid move not from wearing out]

Don't feel alone there Dr, we all have a secrete drawer that contains busted up tooling. Did I ever tell you about the time I had the lathe in rapid traverse and,,,

My Summit engine lathe

And a big ole rod set up in my mill

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Midwest redneck

11-03-2006 15:38:57




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Butch(OH), 11-03-2006 07:28:30  
Do you like that Summit lathe? I have never seen one before. WHat Hp is yours and the turning diam. capacity?



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Butch(OH)

11-03-2006 19:53:18




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Midwest redneck, 11-03-2006 15:38:57  
It is 10HP and will swing 19" over the bed, I think 10" or so over the cross slide. I dont know what it will swing with the gap out because it will never be out as long as I own it. 60" betwen centers amd 3" through the headstock. For reasons unknown to me Summit calls it a 16" lathe. Made in Burgaria and very high quality and priced accordingly. To give you an idea of it size that is a 5 1/4" bore sleeve I am boring in the pic.

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Midwest redneck

11-04-2006 04:09:30




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Butch(OH), 11-03-2006 19:53:18  
What did that Summit cost you? (new or used)



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Butch(OH)

11-04-2006 16:28:20




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Midwest redneck, 11-04-2006 04:09:30  
I bought it new and it was just shy of 20K 6 years ago. Lots of money but I had work for it that paid well. I wouldn't trade it for a semi load of lessor lathes, it's a dandy.



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MikeCatthemuseum

11-03-2006 21:04:56




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Butch(OH), 11-03-2006 19:53:18  
Butch, waaaaa y back when, lathe makers (real ones) used to size their lathes in a way that actually stated what you could DO with them. They sized them not to the infinitessimal fraction of how big a part would clear the ways from exact center (sales gimmick), but what the biggest faceplate they could swing was. For L&S, LeBlond, and Monarch actual swing was 2" beyond the stated size. Apparently, Summit has done the same thing.

Here's my 90 yr old grandaddy of your machine, an 18" L&S selective head...

Link

Too slow for carbide, but it's downright scary with HSS cutters, 1/4" deep cuts in steel without a whimper.

And my mill, ever seen one of these? heheh...

Link

These are a couple of my personal babies that live at home. Got work goodies, too.

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135 Fan

11-03-2006 15:47:35




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Midwest redneck, 11-03-2006 15:38:57  
Summit are very good machine tools. Dave



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Mike M

11-03-2006 10:13:08




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Butch(OH), 11-03-2006 07:28:30  
Did you have that rod rebabbited ? if so where ? or are you cutting it out for insert type bearings ?



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Butcg(OH)

11-03-2006 19:57:16




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Mike M, 11-03-2006 10:13:08  
That rod came out of an engine that was freshly rebuilt and then sat for many years outside. The crank was unsavable it was so bad but I managed to save the rods by removing about 060 in shims and then reboring to the original size, saved an expensive babit job. If you need some babbit work done right and for decent money I can get you a name and number in OK. shooot me an email for info.



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Butch(OH)

11-03-2006 05:56:35




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
Clicker below for some real helpful info. When using HSS tooling a good seat of the pants rule is chips that are turning color are a sign of too much speed or possibly too little feed, this assumes sharp cutters. Now listen up, irregardless of what you may hear or read on the internet or the super duper cutting oil can, the vast majority of tool cooling comes from transferring heat to the chip. Yes, given speed and feed set perfectly you can tram a deeply plunged HSS cutter across a non hardened steel part and lay your fingers on the mill at the end of the cut, no oil or coolant used. Stop the mill before touching, gesh. Feeds and speeds can pushed when coolants flood the tool and work. Cutting oils extend tool life and help a little with cooling some but will not prevent tool over heating if you are not in the ball park with your set up. Also remember that surface speeds, NOT RPMs are what you need to pay attention to. RPMs are only a handy way for us to reference surface speeds. , Your not doing a production run are you? Starting slow and working up will save your wallet. One more piece of advice. I know it hurts but look into the carbide replaceable insert cutters for all but your smallest diameter milling needs. They will save you bucks, I hadda learn the hard way.

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Jerry L /AZ

11-03-2006 06:36:56




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Butch(OH), 11-03-2006 05:56:35  
Hi Butch; I have a small amount of experence on a mill, I guess what I am asking for is a starting point I have a drill speed chart that gives the type of material and the size of the drill and the reccomended speed for that size drill. can I use this as a starting point for the end mill? say 1/2" drill calls for a rpm of 600 can I use 600rpms on a 1/2" end mill?
no I'm not running production. I live in a small town and have a few machine shops but they won't do job shop work one place will make a bushing only if I order 100. So I bought a 9x20" lathe and made my own. I'm working on a old ford tractor and rebuilding the front end loader. I'm now making the brackets for the hydraulic cyclinders. Ive worked as a machinest, job shop ,mainly on lathes. used mills to cut keyways ect. Any way thanks for the reply. Have a good day. Jerry

If you care to chat my e-mail is opean.

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Butch(OH)

11-03-2006 07:21:27




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 06:36:56  
Take the time to look at the link, your answers are there. It is not as simple as X spindle speed for X dia mill on X material or I would gladly give you that info. This is why I suggested you check out your chip color and start slow. Slow RPM does not hurt any cutter if the feed is matched to that RPM, aka chip loads. To answer your specific question, yes you may use a HHS drill bit chart and use it as a starting point to HHS end mills, it beats the dickens of of pulling an RPM out of thin air. Very soon into running machine tools you will quit looking for a chart and going by the seat of your pants which is simply chip color, sounds of the tool and cut etc. Have fun!

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Jerry L /AZ

11-03-2006 08:57:17




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Butch(OH), 11-03-2006 07:21:27  
Thanks butch; Thats what I was wondering. when I get a bit more time on it and some high dollor toolimg I'LL be able to do that, just needed a starting point and guideline so to speak. getting ready hope that my collet chuck and collets come today. Jer



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rc_ct

11-03-2006 05:48:47




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 Re: milling machine calling all macinests in reply to Jerry L /AZ, 11-03-2006 05:21:20  
Feeds and speeds charts in a "machinery handbook" would be a good starting point. Number of flutes,RPM, feed speed and then the type of materail being milled/amount of material being removed. Cutting fluid --type and surface finish you are shooting for. Machinery Handbook has a website and old editions can be found on ebay, used book stores or ask someone with a manufacturing background to photocopy select pages.

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