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Tool Talk Discussion Forum

Building a shop-kinda long, sorry

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Scott

01-02-2004 08:15:03




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There has been a lot of discussion here lately about shop buildings, heat, ventilation, etc. I am in the process of planning a shop but getting wrapped up in which to build--pole building or stick built building—metal building with metal roof or wood and shingles.
Hoping that the experiences of the people on this site will help me with the direction I need to go and aid me in avoiding mistakes.

My requirements are simple, would like something that I can (reasonably) heat in the winter and keep cool in the summer, yet have enough space for two projects in the shop at one time. I would also like to have an area to use for some wood working (table saw, router table, etc). My job requires me to travel extensively so I only get to work in the shop about six to eight days a month and do it for relaxation mostly.

I have eight and half acres that are mostly wooded and rolling (steep in areas-10 feet wide and 8 miles deep if you get my meaning) so site selection is becoming an issue. I currently have Farmalls (H & 400) with the H being the working tractor. Also have a `53 Chevy ¾ ton that operates well but does need to be restored. Plan on acquiring a JD H & G in the future and would like to get a 1-1/2 ton antique truck to restore. This equipment need not be stored inside but would rather build a lean-to on the building to use as a shelter.

I am currently considering a 28 x 36 Gambrel building with the doors in the center instead of on the gable ends. Appearance is a factor as the project must get pass my wife.

Any thoughts, ideas, “wish I would have done it this ways,” are greatly appreciated.

Again, thanks for you responses and my you all enjoy a happy and prosperous new year.

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Taylor Lambert

01-05-2004 08:54:54




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
a fella in my area builds metal building with treated wood posts and metal rafters and skins. He built us a 40 by 50 with 14 foot sides and insulated it for 12000. He had it done in 3 days and left the ends open for us to pour the concrete then he cam bacl and put the ends in it it. The doors are 1 person door and a 14 foot front and rear sliding doors hung on rollers. I have a small machine shop I work in part time and am abl to raise roll off trucks or brin in excavators sometimes.

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Dave

01-04-2004 08:46:39




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
Easiest way to see if your making the right size is to mark it off. If at first it appears that it is small, It will be.

We just built one this summer and I love it.

34 x 64 Wood Frame with metal siding inside and out including Ceiling which has 13-1/2 feet inside clearance
5" concrete slab, 8 double pane windows (4 per side)
12 x 16 insulated overhead door with an opener (no shoveling snow to open the door)
R-19 insualtion in the walls and 6" blown in insulation in the attic.
Insulated walk in door with double pane window 2 fans and 2 - 50,000 btu propane radiant heaters hung from the ceiling. 2 thermostats, one set about 5 degrees cooler than the other. Only time the second one kicks on is if the door is left open for some reason.
Anywhere that I'm standing and near a wall, I'm within 5 feet of an electrical outlet.
Vent on the cap of the roof with a vapor barrier. Total price including heat and electrical... Less than $40,000

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deano

01-03-2004 16:42:13




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
just went to new years party/venison feed at friend's house he built his pole barn/house is inside, with slab heat. I'm sold on in floor heat the floor stays dry..my 2 and 4 year old children rode bicycles/tricycles/colored on the floor, you wouldn't do that in forced air heat etc.... my pole barn is nice but i'd should've spent the extra 8-10k. also, i do some storage for boat/rv 13' or more is height you want...i built mine originally for hay hauling..but now i find barely fits great lakes sailboats...just some thoughts..if your mechanical you could install the heating yourself and save big $$$$..i envy you a little, wish i had the money to do it right next time...also...i wouldn't worry bout rot with beams if you use green treat....i used fiber mesh concrete/costs more but hasn't cracked signaficant in 12 years/ and i live by duluth (extreme temp changes)

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Bob

01-03-2004 16:25:44




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I had a 1953 Chev, sure do miss it



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Cliff Neubauer

01-03-2004 11:01:55




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I like the stick built design myself. Alot of guys with older pole barns are now finding that the posts will rot off at ground level and replacing them is not an easy task. When I build my shop it will be with 2x8" studs on 16" centers 18' long on top of a 12" concrete wall giving me over 19' of height. I would consider going 50' long so you could have two work bays with doors and a third bay for your wood working tools. If you build it 12' tall or more you can add a loft over part of it for overhead storage which saves alot of floor space. Our current shop is 40x40' with a 20' sliding door in the center of one end, we have benches, shelves or tools around all of the walls which leaves us with just about enough room to get two big tractors in but it is very tight. If you want to be able to work on two projects at once to doors is a must and even though your tractors are small I would consider a 12x12' door the absolute smallest you would want but the second door could be smaller. Since you don't want to heat the building all the time a floor heat or other radiant heat system would not be a good choice since they require alot of time to raise the temperature. A good forced air furnace would work as good as anything and would be cheap to install. Window's in opposite sides of the building would let a nice breeze through in the summer for cooling. I would put a drain in the floor and running water would be nice too. Since you mentioned adding a lean to you might consider making part of it enclosed for your wood working tools to keep the sawdust from making the whole shop a mess.

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Notrhern boy

01-03-2004 08:51:50




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
If I had to do it again I would have bought attic trusses, for storage for the wifes cr..stuff.



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nate

01-03-2004 03:58:19




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I just built a barn approx. the same size for a customer. We poured a slab w/ fiberglass reinforcement added to mix, laid a block wall 2 blocks high and stick framed the walls. The roof was also was Gambrel style and worked quite well as we're in snow country, but doors are in the gabled end for reasons mentioned by others. We didn't put radiant heat in the slab at customers request. He now wishes he had. If you use a poured slab it is my suggestion to put the pipeing in even if you don't think you'll use it. Outside furnaces are great for shops. Also don't forget about the room left up in the rafters. Exellent storage area.

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Fern(Mi)

01-02-2004 20:43:13




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I've seen a lot of good ideas & advice here. Just thought I might add some finishing thoughts. I like 2' over hangs on the eaves, for less wash out along the building base. I Like doors on the gable ends for deep snow reasons. Alturnatives are rolling the door inside or install overheads.
Use no less than a 2 by 6 for your truse cords. That cord is no stronger than the wood left around the largest knot.
Use visqueen?...plastic under any concrete floor. This stops that yearly spring floor condensation problem that lasts from three days up to three weeks.
For floor reinforcement, i have been prone to use that rusty old woven wire once stretched around this forty's delapidated fence line. Just somemore ideas to mull over. Have fun.

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Lincoln

01-02-2004 17:10:45




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
You can't build it big enough. I have a 50' X 100' pole shed. 30 X 50 has a concrete floor, overhead door, furnace, and water. 30 x 50 seems small once all the tools and equipment are in and a few projects are started. I would consider overhead radiant heating vs a regular furnace.



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Hi, Scott....John,PA

01-02-2004 17:07:39




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I haven't got the time to read all of the posts to your shop idea, but, I will shed some past experience:

I would entertain the idea that if you are building a "shop", maybe you should build it large enough so that the building could be used as a small residence, even if you had to divide the property later.



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Kurt

01-02-2004 17:07:00




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I built a 22' X 50' Deep garage attached to the house. This is okay but I should have made a small garage attached to the house and then built a 20X40 barn for tractors, wood shop, storage etc. Oh well, Really dont want to build more buildings.



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Frank (n.mi.)

01-02-2004 16:22:31




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
You might want to reconsider the door placement if you live in snow country. My brother-in-law put his doors on the eave ends of his pole barn and he cusses himself every time he wants to use the doors in the winter...he has to spend a half-hour shoveling his way in almost every time! If you don't get snow however, it don't matter.



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Dave

01-02-2004 15:58:40




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
Make it bigger and make sure you have plenty of light and outlets.



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John Humphrey Morocco IN.

01-02-2004 15:49:08




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
32'X48' Post and frame
12'6" Inside height
2@9' overhead doors east end
1@10' overhead door west end
1 entrance door
Same metal inside as outside
9" insl. sidewall
15" insl. overhead
Heats with a 50,000 BTU furnace
Cools with 2 1/2 ton AC
Aprox. $29,000 with 200 amp service, copper air lines, (175 psi comp.),MH lighting, 6" concret floor(to support machine tools),single and three phase power.
Work any time of the year, at any reasonable temp inside I want.

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D.L.

01-02-2004 13:54:40




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
The first thing I would do is double the size!!! I just helped my buddy stick-build a 28' x 40' shop last summer... like a previous post mentioned, about the time we finished & moved in the tools & machinery, he was out of room!!!!!



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Bob

01-02-2004 13:37:36




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
Two comments, one is that I really don't think you're going to be happy with a 28X36, especially given that you want to have two projects going simultaneously PLUS have an area for your woodworking stuff. By the time you get tools, shelves, cabinets, etc. in there you'll be lucky to have room enough for one project, especially if you're talking 1 1/2 ton truck restoration. Those pieces get kind of big and take up a lot of room.

Secondly, what I did was stick built, composite shingle roof, insulation to the hilt, single 8 foot high door, outlets every 6 feet all around the perimeter, and radiant heating in the slab. I have the heater for the radiant heat in the basement of the house, as I didn't want to have a flame in the shop due to combustibles out there. The only things I would have done differently would be to add a second large door, and made the shop larger, as I'm out of room AGAIN!!!!!

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Dieselrider

01-02-2004 09:27:09




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
I don't know what others might think but here's some of my experience. We just constructed a 40'x 60' pole barn last year,with hot water radiant heat in the floor excellent heat and very efficient. I think you'll find the pole buildings are cheaper to build than stick built. I have two 20 foot slider doors on each end but would maybe opt for overhead if I had it to do again. The sliders do not seal up real well but a tarp in front of the door helps in the winter. We built 12' high to the ceiling with no overhang outside which makes it much nicer to seal that part up and doesn't give the birds and bugs room to move in. I hope this helps and good luck with your projects.

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Bill in Colo

01-02-2004 12:41:30




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 Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Dieselrider, 01-02-2004 09:27:09  
dieselrider. tell us more about your heating system, brands of pipe and boiler costs and ect.



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Dieselrider

01-02-2004 19:15:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Bill in Colo, 01-02-2004 12:41:30  
Bill, I had a plumber do the whole system for the sake of time. the boiler is a 96kbtu burnham furnace. As for the pipe all I know is there is over 3000 feet of flexable plastic tubing in the 40'x60'. Total cost was about $7,000. It was really cold here in nov. 2002 when we got it fired up and the furnace ran about a week straight to get the slab hot and the air in the building up to temp. But after that it really keeps it nice in there. The only down side to that type of heat is when the temp outside rises into the 50's or so the shop gets a bit warm for working in. That is a time the big slider doors are nice to let the air in. One other thing is if you want anything in the shop that requires holes in the floor, plan them out ahead of time or go with the more expensive tubing that has a wire in it so it can be found later. You do not want to drill a hole in one of those pipes once they're in the floor and the heat is on. I hope this helps.

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CRUSADER

01-02-2004 08:34:48




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 Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to Scott, 01-02-2004 08:15:03  
Hello Scott,

Sounds like the two of us are looking to do something on simular situations. I need/want a shed to tinker in and for some storage. She claims it needs to be for storage. The plan as of right now, is for a 20' x 25' with 9' walls and a 1' x 12' pitch roof. Due to the location and city codes this is as big as I can get in the backyard. Still trying to decide the doors and a few other things prior to having it built. Trying to decide between a 10' or 12' overhead door. Plan on a 6' roll up door on the side going into the back yard for easier access. Also it will have a standard walk in door. Plan to have it insulated. Am told that standard is 3" on sides and 6" in ceiling/roof. Please let me know how you decide to lay out your shed. I would like to have any and all inputs to use for mine that I can get.

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Slowpoke

01-03-2004 00:18:49




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 Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to CRUSADER, 01-02-2004 08:34:48  
A 1 in 12 pitch roof is almost flat. It will have to be tar & gravel or metal. For the size you are building, a 3 in 12 pitch would allow the use of composition shingles which you can do yourself. If possible, situate the roof ridge parallel with the house roof ridge for the best look .



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D.L.

01-02-2004 13:52:07




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 Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to CRUSADER, 01-02-2004 08:34:48  
Local codes have recently changed... must use 2 x 6 construction on walls to get in R-19 insulation... need 8" insulation in ceiling... I know these are local codes, but you should check with your building department to find your local requirements. Personally, I wouldn't build a roof pitch of less than 4/12... the shallower pitches are more difficult to seal up because the water doesn't drain off as quickly!!!

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CRUSADER

01-02-2004 16:39:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to D.L., 01-02-2004 13:52:07  
I have spoken with a couple of contractors that are working up the plans and the bids. SWMTD hasn't been very responsive lately in the project of how and what size. In the rough plans that both of them gave me this is the thickness of insulation that they gave reference to. In order to put the 4 x 12 pitch roof (think this would also be preferable) the building would have to be moved further into the property from the property line and space will not afford it. Would have to go with an eight foot or less height on the building in order to do so.

What type of electrical would you suggest putting into the building? I am thinking that a 100 amp would be sufficient, but am thinking of going with 200 amp. Hope to have an arc welder and air compressor along with a drill press and possibly a table saw. Although none of these would be operating most likely at the same time, I have seen it when one of them is running the lights dim and there is a serious draw on the amount of power.

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D.L.

01-03-2004 09:47:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to CRUSADER, 01-02-2004 16:39:45  
A few years ago, I built a small shop for some of my woodworking machinery... it's only about 400 sq ft because I was extremely limited on space around our house in town. I installed a 100 amp electrical service because of the small size of the shop... BIG MISTAKE!!! I found a "once-in-a-lifetime" deal on a 7.5 hp 80 gal air compressor (draws close enough to 40 amps when running) bought a fair size MIG welder (if memory serves, draws 45+ amps when running @ max amperage) and then, there's all the 3 hp, 5 hp, and 7.5 hp woodworking machinery. It all works, but, needless to say, I'm maxed out on all circuits and am careful to ensure the air compressor doesn't come on when I'm welding... etc. The one GOOD thing I did was to run HEAVY wire (#6 copper) in the walls for ALL my 220v circuits (my shop is long & narrow so I have some LONG wire runs), but... if I had it to do all over again, I'd have installed a 200 amp service panel. Oh well, we're going to sell this place soon anyways, I'll do it right on the next shop I build!!!

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Van

01-02-2004 11:07:47




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 Re: Re: Building a shop-kinda long, sorry in reply to CRUSADER, 01-02-2004 08:34:48  
Are you a "Chairborne Ranger?"



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