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Drill Bits

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F14

07-21-2000 09:19:55




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My selection of drill bits is dwindling, and many of the remaining bits are about as sharp as a marble. I'm thinking about buying a new set, and I've got a couple of questions:

1. Are the 100+ piece sets in Northern Hydraulics (Around $70-$80) worth a hoot, or soft, imported junk?

2. Is the titanium coating actually helpful, or just a sales gimmick?

3. Assuming that the NH stuff (as I suspect) is junk, what should I expect to pay for a decent set, 1/16 to 1/2 by 16ths. They will be for general shop use, 90% on mild steel, about half of that in a drill press.

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Steve U.S. Alloys

07-23-2000 09:01:42




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 Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14 , 07-21-2000 09:19:55  
I have a recommendation to make in regard to brands. We have been selling bits made by Norse man Drill in Minnesota for a few years. They have all types from the Cobalts and Titaniun Nitrided to the black finished ones.

The one I would recommend is what they call a Magnum Super Premium. It's a middle of the road price and a high end quality. I don't confess to be an expert on drills, what I do know is they are one of the best bits I have owned for the price.

You can get them quite easily I believe. If you get them from us, we will refund your money if you aren't satisfied with them. Here's an example of cost. A type 175AG which is a mechanics length, 135° split point, with 3 flats on the shank is $29.21US for a 13 piece set (part# 66460). A 15 piece set part# 66470 is $82.82US and a 29 piece set part# 66480 is $150.58US. I believe that pricing is current. If you want to double check, the toll free number is 1-800-325-1568.

There are other variations of the Magnum Super Premium and they also have tap and die sets made from this material. I haven't tried those though. Anyway, even if you don't get them from me, get them from someone else. I think you'll be happy with them.
Steve

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F14

07-23-2000 11:48:24




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 Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Steve U.S. Alloys, 07-23-2000 09:01:42  
Thanks for the leads, Steve. A lot of good info on this thread, learned a bunch.



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Dick L

07-23-2000 05:17:11




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 Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14 , 07-21-2000 09:19:55  

I have a mold building shop and I buy the cheap drills for mild steel. They seem to last just about as long as the more expensive drills. The same goes for mill and lathe cutters. I have cobalt for the prehard steels and carbide for the hard steels. Most drills are ruined by screw ups, not regular use. Even the cheap ones!



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Mark Thompson

07-22-2000 22:46:00




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 Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14 , 07-21-2000 09:19:55  
If it were my money I'd take a pass on the NH drill set(although I haven't seen it).MSC (mscdirect.com) has a generic USA made 115 pc tri-index on sale for $100.If you want a really good tri-index I would expect to pay over $250 for it.J & L Industrial(jlindustrial.com)has their Hertel sets on sale for a good price-$30 for a 29 pc HSS 1/16-1/2 set,and $47 for a 29 pc 135 deg split point stubby set.Hertel is a good drill and that's a very good price.For reference to the NH set,J&L has a Hertel cobalt tri-index on SALE for $285.R.W.Thompson(no relation)sells his own brand of drills and are super excellent drills,his website is rwthompson.net Hope some of this helps,Mark

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F14

07-23-2000 03:16:42




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 Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Mark Thompson, 07-22-2000 22:46:00  
Thanks, Mark. I think I'm going to buy a good small set for important jobs, and see how many drills I butcher from my old set trying to learn how to sharpen them.



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BFO

07-21-2000 17:42:00




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 Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14 , 07-21-2000 09:19:55  
If those are made of HSS, and you use and maintain them properly, they should last. Remember this formula for drilling and machining :

rpm =(4 X cutting speed)/diameter of drill

where the cutting speed for mild steel is 70-100 (sfm) surface feet per minute.
The cutting speed for stainless is 30-40 sfm. For sharpening get yourself a drill gage. They are graduated on the leg so that you can keep the sides the same. Practice, practice, practice. I'm a big fan of the titanium nitrate coated bits, especially for stainless work. But once the coating wears off, you have a normal HSS bit. To give you an example I was able to drill an entire trailer deck with one titanium bit whereas it would take 5 or 6 HSS (21' x 8 1/2', approx. 450 holes). As well after someone broke all my expensive Cobalt bits, the Ti's looked real good for replacements. Keep them cool. For hand drilling, I keep a stick of DoAll Tool Saver, and coat the bit frequently, especially when doing stainless.

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Dan from PA

07-21-2000 15:45:23




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 Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14 , 07-21-2000 09:19:55  
I had a fellow show me once how to sharpen drill bits. It was the best 10 min I ever spent. I had one of those sharpening attachments for the bench grinder, but I've never talked to anyone who's been able to get one to work right. This guy did it freehand. He had a little flat metal gauge that kind of looked like a "Z" (I've seen them at Sears) to check his work as he went along. I was going to get one, but I've had acceptable results without it, so I never did. I'm sure my bits make egg-shaped holes, and they probably don't drill straight, but they put holes in metal. :)
Here's how, using a bench grinder:
First, put on a face shield.
Then, make sure your wheel has a flat face. Get one of those stone dressing tools. In a pinch, you can hold a piece of cinder block or a Pennsylvania Potato (rock) against the wheel. Move side-to-side to get a flat surface. Be careful! This is a great way to hurt the fingers.
Next, stand in front of the wheel like as if it were a car tire you'd be about to get run over. Hold the drill bit with both hands in front of you so the shank end is close to your sternum, the point is away from you, and the bit is almost horizontal, with the point pointing slightly uphill. Now, kick the shank end to the left (for standard right-hand-cutting drills) to get whatever angle you want the drill bit to have (I think 110 deg is pretty all-purpose, so you want to move the shank to the left about 35 deg). Rotate the drill until there is a cutting edge pointing straight out to the left. Touch this edge to the center of the wheel, level with the grinder's shaft. You want the cutting edge to be in contact with the wheel all along its edge. Practice with the power off to get a feel for it.
Now, just push the bit straight up, following the curvature of the wheel for a ways. This gives you the heel angle. You may need to play with how far from horizontal to hold the drill to get this right. Too close to horizontal, and the bit won't cut. Too far, and the bit may try to cut too fast, or dull too quickly, or the edge will chip.
Use light pressure, and only take 2 or 3 cuts on one side before turning the drill over to do the other side. Have a cup of water handy and swizzle the drill around in it often. Keeping the bit cool is the key. Take your time. Look at the end of the drill and keep the webbing centered between the edges. This is what the gauge was for.
This has saved me *so* much money buying new drills, and aggrevation fighting dull ones. Even broken drills can be rejuvinated if they're not broken too close to the shank (the webbing gets wider there). Don't be afraid to re-sharpen if the bit doesn't seem to be cutting or if it starts squealing. You'll soon get the hang of it. There's now a lovely pile of long curly cuttings under my drill press, instead of the tiny chips I used to get. And the drills seem to melt through the work. I've even drilled leaf springs and brush hog blades.
Since I learned to do this, I've had a love/hate relationship with those new spilt-point bits. They're nice when they're new, they cut well, they're strong, and sometimes you don't need to center-punch, but you can't sharpen them with this method; the webbing is much wider than standard bits. Regular drills are actually getting harder to find.
Give it a try before you spring for a new set!

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Scott Green

07-21-2000 17:57:25




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 Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Dan from PA, 07-21-2000 15:45:23  
Dan from PA. , I know the feeling. I once had a tool grinder show me how to sharpen a drill bit. I was amazed at how easy it was. You just have to know how. Like you said , the best 10 minutes of education I had ever had. I was always so carefull not to get the bit dull. Now I don't care. When the bit gets dull , I resharpen it in 30 seconds or less. By the way , when you have a drill bit with a wide webbing , useing the corner of the grinding wheel , reach inbetween the flutes to grind the webbing thiner. This is called thinning the drill. The drill will go through metal / mild steel much quicker. Of cource a thinned drill bit will take too big of a bite on softer material , for example , wood , plastic , etc..

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Dan from PA

07-21-2000 19:03:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Scott Green, 07-21-2000 17:57:25  
Thanks for the tip, I never thought of thinning the web.
Also, another afterthought, I found this great cutting fluid for drilling, tapping, and the like at my local industrial supply place. I think it's called Astro 2000, or something like that. You dilute it at an absurd rate, like 50:1 or so, with water. That is 1 gal makes 51 gal of cutting fluid. I think it works better than oil on steel, and is a lot cheaper than oil (about $20/gal undiluted), so you can really dump it on, to keep the bit cool. Since it's water based, you and your shop stay a lot cleaner, and you don't have to worry about cleaning the oil off your parts before painting. I'm sure there are other water-based fluids out there, but this is the one I found.

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F14

07-21-2000 17:30:46




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 Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Dan from PA, 07-21-2000 15:45:23  
Thank you, Sir! That's the best explanation of drill bit sharpening I've ever seen. I shall print it out and tape it up on the wall above my grinder, and give it a whirl. Lord knows, I got plenty of "practice" drills.

Just one question. I don't have a wheel for my grinder that's worth a hoot. I've been gonna get a new one for a while anyway, now I've got the perfect excuse. What do you recommend for a wheel?

Okay, I lied, two questions: I use my Shopsmith for a grinder. In case you're not familiar with the Shopsmith, it's a variable speed drive multi-tool. Roughly what RPM should I turn the wheel at?

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Dan from PA

07-21-2000 18:49:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14, 07-21-2000 17:30:46  
Hmmm, I haven't really experimented much, I just use what I have: a Monkey Ward bench grinder turning a 6" wheel at 3100 RPM, which seems plenty fast. I suppose they ought to be wet ground, but 3100 RPM slings the water off the stone immediately, so I have to do the cup routine. If you have the option of slowing down your stone and adding a drip system, you should be in high cotton.
I think my stone is a 60 grit, but I'm not sure. A little finer grit might be better, though, but I'm just guessing.

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Scott Green

07-22-2000 06:35:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Dan from PA, 07-21-2000 18:49:04  
The tool grinder friend I had , used a very fine grit white stone on most of the high speed steel he sharpened. The stone was not like a bench grinder stone. It looked like a cup mounted sideways. No liquid was used as coolant. The tool was mounted on a slide table. He would move the table back and forth , skimming the stone at every pass.The RPM'S were quite high , but I'm not sure what it was. On the other hand , we all know a bench grinder running at 1800 RPM'S will not heat up the material like a grinder running at 3600 RPM'S does.

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Larry Garbarek

07-23-2000 11:22:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Scott Green, 07-22-2000 06:35:37  
I export U.S. made twist drills around the world and find that their price and quality is competitve internationally. The world's largest drill plant (Triumph/PTD) is here. The major HSS steel producers are here. The largest single drill market in the world is here. Thus, U.S. made drills are a bargin.

Some American brands are Cleveland, Norseman, Michigan, Ohio, National, New York, Viking, Triumph, Precision, Chicago LaTrobe, Union, Hayden and a few others I'm forgetting are all made here and all excellent quality.

About TiN and other coatings, these are fantastic for production drilling where heat buildup cuts drill life and limits production.

The TiN coating and its sister coatings (TiCN, TiAlN, AlTiN, Black Diamond and dozens more) have limited or no value for maintenance work with the possible exception as a rust preventative.

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MarkJ

11-15-2004 08:23:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Larry Garbarek, 07-23-2000 11:22:27  
If you want to know more about PVD coatings take a look at http://www.pvd-coatings.co.uk



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F14

07-23-2000 11:46:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Larry Garbarek, 07-23-2000 11:22:27  
Thanks. That's why I come here, I always get the straight word from somebody.



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Fred OH

07-24-2000 08:20:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to F14, 07-23-2000 11:46:46  
Hi F14 from Fred,
I guess as a life long machinist, I can fill in some of the blanks I've seen so you'll be well informed. The term "bits" refers to the wood shop. The term "twist drills" refers to metal cutting. My smart a**ed instructor in Navy Machinist School nailed me on that one! The speed of a grinding wheel is around 5000 surface feet per minute. If you laid the wheel down and rolled it, it would roll 5000 feet in a minute. Almost a mile a minute or around 55 MPH.Some bench grinders deviate from this a little but it is good practice. The faster a wheel runs, the harder it acts and hotter. The white wheels refered to (and gray) are Aluminum Oxide and are used to grind steel. Green wheels or Silicon Carbide are used to grind tungsten carbide and non ferrous metals. 36 grit for roughing and 60 grit for finishing on steel is the general accepted practice. One item not mentioned above is to always keep the cutting edge horizontal when grinding twist drills and never grind toward the cutting edge, always away from it. Also never quench the drill in water, but we all do. Just don't stay on it long enough for it to turn purple, thats too hot and will take some of the heat treat out of the twist drill. Also never purchase 135 degree split point twist drills, their too hard to sharpen by hand and you have to thin the web every time. (They're for production and tough materials). That little chisel point has to push its way through the metal (no clearance on it). Never buy cobalt twist drills if you're gonna use them in a drill motor (electric drill), they're too brittle. Look for HSS (High Speed Steel) on them. Generally thats M2 steel and has been the industry standard for years. High Carbon steel twist drills are good only for wood, plastics, and aluminum. Slowed down they will drill mild steel and with coolant will drill tougher material. You don't need the titanium dioxide coating, thats for production cutting. The word from the machinists that have tried the China twist drills is they are not quite as good as the American brands, just need sharpened a little sooner. (More reason for some of us to learn to sharpen them).I've used them and they are fine for maintenance work. The heel clearance that was refered to can run 8 to 12 degrees (thats the area behind the cutting lip) It takes practice to get it right. The standard angle on general purpose twist drills is 118 degrees. Although the harder the material, the less the angle. Ever drill through something soft only to have the drill grab at the other side and maybe even break? Try grinding or stoning a small flat on the face of the cutting edge to eliminate the rake angle. Won't grab then, but requires more pressure to cut and more heat build up (but does the job). Don't have a gage to sharpen with? Hold it up (toward daylight) and cup your hand around it and rotate it. You can tell if the flutes are equal length that way. Need coolant? Diesel or soapy water for aluminum, motor oil for steel is better than nothing. (even used) but harder to wash out of your clothes. All mechanics should learn to sharpen twist drills. Once you learn the basics, you can sharpen a 1/16" or a 3" if need be. My motto: "You got to get smarter than the metal". This is a good place to do that. L8R----Fred

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Larry Garbarek

07-24-2000 10:32:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Fred OH, 07-24-2000 08:20:04  
Fred OH is absolutely right about cobalt drills! Their ability to drill stainless steel and other difficult materials is something worth considering if you are using a drill press and have ways of making a steady set-up.

Hand drilling with cobalt drills will cause high levels of drill breakage as cobalt is brittle.

M2 HSS drills are less brittle and a better choice for most hand operations. Actually, most HSS drills made in the U.S. are from M7 but that material is so close to the specifications of M2 that only a metalurgist would notice.

But, M7 is made again for drill presses and similar production drilling.

M50 HSS as offered by Triumph Twist Drill and Hanson Drills may not be as hard as M7 but it is more rugged. Also, Viking/Norseman drills are said to be made of a HSS that is tougher than regular HSS.

All of these brands are exported around the world as customers overseas have tried drills from other countries and return to U.S. made drills for their price and quality.

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Steve U.S. Alloys

07-25-2000 12:47:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Drill Bits in reply to Larry Garbarek, 07-24-2000 10:32:37  
Before we took on the Norseman line I drilled 8 holes in 1/8" stainless with a 1/4" bit. I quit drilling at 8 because for the price, it would be unreasonable to expect any more.



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