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Dads B 03-14-2005 04:02:30 66.79.84.4 7975 Report to Moderator	I'm working on a 1946 Farmall B that was repainted sometime in the 50's. Does anyone know if that paint would have high lead content? If so, how can I protect myself while wire burshing-sanding etc.? What do you guys do? Also, are there any obvious symptoms of lead poisioning? JH [Reply]   [No Email]
Red Dave 03-14-2005 07:09:53 24.104.94.34 7977 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Dads B, 03-14-2005 04:02:30   Yes, it may very well be lead-based paint. Much of the paint used in that era was, and even today you can still buy paint that contains lead. You have to read the labels, if it doesn't say "Lead-Free", it may still have lead. Lead will affect your kidneys, among other things and is stored in the body, releasing it over time. It is especially dangerous for young children because their bodies are still developing and the effects of lead poisoning can plague them their entire lives. There are 2 ways to get lead poisoning, by ingesting it and by inhaling it. You can protect yourself from ingesting with good hygiene practices. That means not eating, drinking or smoking when handling lead. Keep your hands away from your mouth when they are dirty. Change clothes when you go into the house, including your shoes. Don't bring the lead inside and comtaminate your wife, kids and the house. You can buy Tyvek disposable suits to wear when you are removing lead paint to help with this. Wear a good, tight-fitting respirator to keep from inhaling lead dust. Use a P-100 or R-100 PARTICULATE filter, formerly known as HEPA (not the charcoal type, they are for organic vapors). Shave off the beard to get a good fit, if you worked for me you would have to be fit-tested in your respirator. These are but a few of the considerations for removing lead-based paint. If you need to know more, post back and I'll try to help.   [Reply]   [No Email]
CNKS 03-14-2005 11:15:37 204.249.178.138 7979 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Red Dave, 03-14-2005 07:09:53   You are correct about the charcoal mask being for organic vapors, but instead of using two masks, or changing filters I use the same one that I use for solvents, with the prefilters. Mine has N95 pre-filters -- are these adequate, or should I be using P100's?   [Reply]   [No Email]
Red Dave 03-14-2005 12:10:24 24.104.94.34 7981 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to CNKS, 03-14-2005 11:15:37   N 95 is not sufficient for the fine dust. When you grind, sand, wire brush etc. on lead paint the particle size is too small for the N95 to remove enough of the small pieces. P100, or R100 would be a better choice. P100 is the same as the old designation HEPA, that is it removes 99.97% of dusts, mists & fumes down to .3 microns in size. OSHA allows a half-face mask with P100's to used for up to 10X the permisible exposure limit for an 8 hour day. An N95 filter is about as much protection as one of those filter masks sold for nuisance dusts. Even at that, a half-face respirator even with a P100 isn't sufficient protection at extremely high lead concentrations or if you burn or weld on metal that is covered with lead-based paint. Burning and welding breaks the lead into atom-sized particles at very high concentrations. Those operations may require a Powered Air-Purifying Respirator (PAPR) or in some cases even supplied air or SCBA. None of this is worth a darn without a good facepiece seal. Note well: this is not legal or industrial hygiene advice, just sharing some of what I have learned over the years. You should do some research of your own on the subject to satisfy yourself as to your own personal health protection requirements. Thus endeth the disclaimer, but by all means be careful. Lead poisoning is real.   [Reply]   [No Email]
CNKS 03-14-2005 17:45:10 204.249.178.138 7983 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Red Dave, 03-14-2005 12:10:24   Sounds like I need to get some P100 filters, will probably have to order them, as I have not seen anything locally but the charcoal with the N95 prefilters. I don't know how much exposure I get, since I don't do it all the time. But, a significant part of my restoration time is spent with an angle grinder, however, the most of the paint, lead based or not has been removed with chemical stripper prior to wire brushing, so most of what I get is dust from rust, the 95s should get most of that. Another thought -- if I am using 95's the lead particles escape into the charcoal portion, am I breathing lead contaminated air, thru those same cartriges when I am not grinding? I do change them frequently. I mentioned the lead paint thing to my doctor, he said a dust mask was sufficient, but I doubt if he sees much lead poisoning anymore.   [Reply]   [No Email]
Red Dave 03-15-2005 07:33:41 24.104.94.34 7987 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to CNKS, 03-14-2005 17:45:10   I don't know for sure, but it seems to me that anything small enough to get through an N95 would probably go through the charcoal too. Charcoal elements work by absorption or adsorption, that is they dope the charcoal with a chemical that is "sticky" to the chemical they want to filter out with that particular cartridge. I don't think they do much for particlulate matter such as lead dusts. If you are looking for respirators, the 2005 Northern Safety Catalogue (part of the Northern hydraulic/Tool group) has a nice selection that you can order. Many different styles and brands. When you are shopping for a respirator, "N" means not oil proof, "R" means oil resistant, "P" means oil proof. Oil resistance probably isn't a big concern for you in a home shop, but it is in certain industries. Oil vapors will render filter respirators ineffective. I mention this because I see a disposable in the catalogue rated as an N100. I never bought from them, but they send me a catalogue anyway, here's a link: Northern Safety   [Reply]   [No Email]
CNKS 03-15-2005 17:17:19 204.249.178.138 7993 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Red Dave, 03-15-2005 07:33:41   Thanks for the N-R-P info, I hadn't paid any attention before, although as you say all I need is particulate and fumes. I have the Northern catalog, also Gemplers.   [Reply]   [No Email]
CNKS 03-14-2005 06:26:46 204.249.178.138 7976 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Dads B, 03-14-2005 04:02:30   Wear a charcoal mask with particulate prefilters. I don't know the symptoms, but the problem with lead is that it is cumulative, ie the body doesn't get rid of all of it, and you won't know you have it until it is too late. Even some current paints have lead in them. You might get by with just a dust mask, but I don't feel safe with those, they don't fit right, etc.   [Reply]   [No Email]
Dads B 03-14-2005 19:30:05 66.79.84.4 7985 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to CNKS, 03-14-2005 06:26:46   Thanks for the info. I bought a P100 mask by AOSafety for $48.00. Cheap insurance against lead poisoning. I hope I have not already gotten too much of a dose of lead. My doctor played down the danger to a "big guy" and that he is more concerned about children. I think I'll use the mask anyway. It fits well and is comfortable. Hey CNKS, I plan to use PPG paint as you have suggested earlier. Have you tried the anti-fisheye additive and if so, is it worth it, especially for a newbie?   [Reply]   [No Email]
rustyj14 03-21-2005 11:15:45 209.195.143.226 8058 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Dads B, 03-14-2005 19:30:05   I grew up in several homes that had lead based paint used in them! Ohh, how awful!! Then, after my army service, i went to work in an auto body shop where we used lead for body repairs! I usually used lead at least twice a week or more! After many years using lead, the autobody trade went into plastic fillers, which, i think, did more damage to the human body than lead! the reason for using plastic was: cheaper materials, easier to work with, because the tin being used in car bodies was much thinner than the older models, and we couldn't use a torch on them to melt the lead, so it was discontinued! I am now 80 years old, and have no problems from lead poisoning! Oh, at times, my wife thinks i'm goofy, but i think that comes from 50+ years of marriage, not from lead! by: Rustyj   [Reply]   [No Email]
CNKS 03-15-2005 07:21:38 204.249.178.138 7986 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Dads B, 03-14-2005 19:30:05   The answer to your last question is, IMO, no. Have heard that stuff causes more problems than it cures, I have never used it. Just clean throughly with DX330 then use a tack cloth on everything and it will be ok. I know of no way to get rid of every defect, but fisheyes haven't been a problem for me. Don't think it makes any difference whether you are a newbie or an oldie, I'm in between somewhere -- I just like to line my ducks up before I do anything I'm not familiar with.   [Reply]   [No Email]
Big Jim 03-16-2005 21:21:50 56.0.84.23 8004 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to CNKS, 03-15-2005 07:21:38   The consensus of most of the painters I"ve heard from is to never use fisheye eliminator unless you have a specific problem to solve. Regular use does cause more problems than it fixes.   [Reply]   [No Email]
rustyj14@yahoo.com 03-21-2005 11:01:07 209.195.143.226 8057 Report to Moderator	Re: Lead Poisioning in reply to Big Jim, 03-16-2005 21:21:50   Well, us old time synthetic enamel painters had a problem with silicone products wafting in thru the shop windows and doors! And, Armor-all was especially troublesome for painters! In our shop, which specialized in baked enamel finishes, we couldn't afford to have to do a job over if a shop down the street decided to Armor-all the upholstery in a car in their shop! The silicones would wend their way on the prevailing air currents into our spray booth. The filters couldn't remove it from the air, so it would screw up the paint job immediately! Thats why we put "Smoothie" in every gallon of enamel just before application! Sort of being prepared for anything! And, i think it made the synthetic enamel flow out better, too! And, if that car ever came in for repainting, we always used smoothie in our enamel, so we had no trouble on the fisheye score! We painted about 50 to 60 cars a year-all over baked enamel paint! by: Rustyj   [Reply]   [No Email]