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12 v Resistor and Diode Question

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Wayne Mo

06-12-2007 20:49:33




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I bought a tractor converted to 12v with a Delco alternator. The one small wire is attached to the large output wire and the other goes direct to the hot side of the coil which is hot when the switch is on. There is no diode and the system works fine. I thought the diode was necessary, why? Also the coil has a note on it that reads, no external resistor required and there is none. Does that mean there is a resistor buried in the coil? I thought a resistor was required to lower the current thru the points to prevent them burning. Also does it make a difference which side of the coil a resistor is used when one is employed?

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glennbrown

06-14-2007 09:58:37




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to soundguy, 06-12-2007 20:49:33  
One other thing, if you are concerned wire in a marker light. Battery + with ignition on, on one side of the bulb, the other side going to the alternator side terminal (the lower one) With key on, engine off the light should be on, this is your idiot light now. when the engine is running and the alternator charging, the light should go off. It's actually voltage differential that turns the light on and off. If the light stays on dim with the engine running it usually indicates on e of those diodes is shorted or open. You don't have to worry about a diode shorting out this way...

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glennbrown

06-14-2007 09:47:45




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to Dunk, 06-12-2007 20:49:33  
The original topic, was conversion to delco alternator...I just did a conversion myself and the "delco" looking, design alternator I got is called a "self exciting" Meaning the internal circuitry has been designed to start chagring without any hookup to the two side terminals. If your Alternator is putting out 30 some odd amps and 14.7 volts or so...don't worry about it. Originally the two side terminals, one was a battery + feed so the internal regulator knew the battery voltage, the other was actually the "idiot" light feed, but also served the purpose of "waking up" the alternator.

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Phil (NJ,AZ,Sask)

06-13-2007 11:54:10




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to Wayne Mo, 06-12-2007 20:49:33  
[quote]I thought the diode was necessary, why?[/quote]

OK here goes! The External diode/Lamp is to prevent the Alternator diode trio from been damaged by loading.(back-feeding the battery) You do not have that Protection. What do you think could have happened to your Alternator?

If the diode trio is now Smoked "OPEN" Your Alternator is now "LIMP" regulating via the battery Excite Path. Do you think this is working the way it is/was designed?

What do you think would happen if one or two diodes (trio) would have shorted? Does ~ (Near) 120V AC work for you? Get your Alternator Checked & wired Correctly.

JMHO

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Wayne Mo

06-14-2007 09:33:47




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to Phil (NJ,AZ,Sask), 06-13-2007 11:54:10  
This sounds like my alternator is damaged somehow since there is no diode or lamp light in the circuit. Yet it seems to be working ok. I have a diode and can insert it in the circuit. Question is, is it too late and should I do it? As far as the placement of a resistor, the coil states none is required and according to SoundGuy, none is needed because the coil winding provides impedence protection. I guess it reduces the current flow enough to protect the points from burning. Thanks for your help

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Phil (NJ,Az,Sask)

06-14-2007 15:58:45




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to Wayne Mo, 06-14-2007 09:33:47  
Question is, is it too late and should I do it?

Yes it may be too late, the diode or marker lamp
won't FIX a Shorted or Open diode trio, but the lamp would light if the Diode trio is BAD.

One good reason for the Lamp.

Regards,



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old

06-12-2007 21:18:40




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to Wayne Mo, 06-12-2007 20:49:33  
As sound says. Also once in a while you will get an alternator for some reason that will not back feed the coil, but the next one you put on probably will its sort of a crap shoot when you deal with them



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soundguy

06-12-2007 21:10:50




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to Wayne Mo, 06-12-2007 20:49:33  
If a coil is a true, native 12v coil.. it needs no resistor.. and has no resistive element burried in it.. it's primary winding will simply be the correct gauge and length to come up with the correct primary resistance.

Resistor placement, if used does matter.. put the resistor inline with the coil primary, after the switch, but before the coil.

Resistors are only needed when your coil native voltage does not match the battery voltage of the tractor...

Ideally you would have a diode or marker lamp in that line going from switched power to the #1 terminal to protect the alternator.. etc..

Soundguy

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RounderRick

06-12-2007 23:12:15




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to soundguy, 06-12-2007 21:10:50  
Hello soundguy – I’m not sure what you mean by “native 12v coil”, but if you mean all OEM applications, I just can’t agree. Before the days of HEI and solid state, there were TWO basic configurations regarding coil design. Some manufactures used the internal resistor arraignment and some (notably almost all Chrysler and many GM) used an external resistor. One functional advantage of the external resistance (which was sometimes provided by a resistance wire instead of the typical ballast resistor) was to allow full voltage during cranking. This was sourced by the start circuit, and bypassed the ballast. Obviously, you got a hotter spark, but the lifespan of a coil without the resistance is greatly reduced. My experience is based on domestic automotive production, but those are the parts that are being used here. I’m not trying to argue, but you always refer to “REAL” and now “native 12v coil” that has no ballast, and I’ve never encountered such a thing. RounderRick

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souNdguy

06-13-2007 06:39:43




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 Re: 12 v Resistor and Diode Question in reply to RounderRick, 06-12-2007 23:12:15  
Did you read my full message.. or just 1-2 sentences. I did explaine what i was refering to when i said 'native' 12v coil. IE one whose primary resistance is correct for a 12v application just by a function of the primary coil wire gauge and length.. IE.. no resistive element.. just plain old small copper and lots of feet of it to provide the primary resistance the best way a coil does.

I think it should be pretty obvious i was not refering to "all oem application" There were too many cars with 12v systems that basically used a 6v coil with a yucky wastefull ballast resistor.....

I'm trying to use some terminology to help the electrically befuddled to grasp these concepts. Seems the average 'sheeple' mechanic just can't figure out the difference in a coil made for 12v.. and a coil made for some other voltage that needs extra serial primary resistance. The coil makers that put ""FOR 12V"" in big letters, and then put "with external resistance"" in flyspec print under it are partially responsible for the electrical befuddlement that many mechanics and electrical lay people with little experience or training when it comes to these issues.

When i use the term 'native', I'm refering to the fact that there is no other 'support' services needed for the device to function in it's intended environment.


Think of it like this.. a piece of computer software that natively supports a certain file format. vs a piece of software that has to use a conversion program to convert the file into a format that the software can process.

I have an engineering background.. thus much of my terminology comes from computer and electronics sources..


Soundguy

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