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12 Volt wiring question

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Rob in VA

09-01-2004 05:23:00

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Just bought a 12V conversion kit for a front mount 1941 9N from this site. Have followed the installation instructions provided. However, I have a question... In the instructions in step 6. it says "Follow diagram shown for installing new wire Harness" I have done this. Then in step 7. it says "Reverse Wires on Amp Meter" My question is do I wire it the way the diagram says to the amp meter or do I wire it as the instructions say and then reverse the wires? Right now I have a wire going from the + side of amp meter to the alternator and on the - side of the amp meter I have one wire going to the Starter switch and another wire other going to the infamous ballest resistor. thanks for you help

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fredt.

09-27-2004 04:47:29

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 05:23:00

I installed a 12 volt wiring conversion kit for a 9N from Sparex. The diagram shows wire #3 going from the starter switch (battery side)to the ampmeter. I've burned this wire up twice. Once when trying to start the tractor and once when reving the engine.

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ihmike(n.e.tx)

09-01-2004 07:20:24

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 05:23:00

Rob; If the wiring diagram says to run the current from alternator through the amp meter then the diagram is wrong. You said one wire on one terminal goes to alt. so it sounds like its hooked up wrong. For an ammeter to monitor what current is going to and from the battery, (which is the purpose of the amp. meter on a vehicle,that is to say: Is my battery being charged or discharged?), then the battery is going to have to be connected to only one terminal.All other wires go to the other terminal, which includes the load (coil,lights,etc.) If you don't do this, then you will never know if the battery is being overcharged or not.Most are under the impression that the amp. meter is to display what the alt. is putting out. This is not what a charge/discharge indicator(your + and - ampmeter is for) You see if its wired up in line with the alternator (series) you are not getting the full story on what's happening to your battery. Very common mistake as I have seen it many times stated here and on the job. I guess a lot of the confusion is that most assume the amp. guage is monitoring the alt. output. This is a true statement, but if you wire it (amp. meter) up using this fact alone, then it is going to be wired in a way no car or tractor or piece of equipment is ever wired coming from the factory. But if one wants to go against the engineers that designed the system, then go for it if it makes one happy. But I believe most don't understand the orginal design of the system. Respectfully, Mike.

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DavidO

09-02-2004 04:55:46

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to ihmike(n.e.tx), 09-01-2004 07:20:24

Mike, I have to disagree with you. The ammeter should measure the output from the alternator. If you want a better reading on what is going on with the battery, install a voltmeter directly across the battery terminals. All of the 40's, 50's and 60's vehicles that I have worked on for the past 40+ years measure the output of the charging device, not the battery current.

Respectfully,

Dave

Old man, EE, Electronics Instructor.

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souNdguy

09-02-2004 05:25:17

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to DavidO, 09-02-2004 04:55:46

Actually Daveo.. the middle zero ammeter that the N's commonly use is speciffically made to show charge/discharge of the battery. That's why the meter can deflect negative.. to show you that your charging system is not keeping up with the load. That is how the OEM wire diagram has it shown as well. It does you no 'real' good to have the ammeter inline with the charging device, showing it's gross output, if your gross load exceeds that.. you'll never know. For instance.. say your genny is putting out its max 20amps.. you meter inline shows 20a charge.. yet lets say you are using 25a worth of lights and ignition.. you are actually in a state of discharge from the storage battery. If you are driving in your field, there is a good chance your tractor will eventually stall due to insuficient ignition power, and you will be stranded in the pasture.. and all the while your gauge showed a 'good' charge of 20 amps. The charge/discharge setup would have correctly identified the 5 amp discharge.

You may be thinking of an non-zero centered amperage gauge.. they usually read 0 to 60 instead of -30 to 0 to +30. Amperage gauges are made to go inline as gross output meters.
In any case.. a voltmeter is probably a better indicator overall, as you can see where the system voltage is setting.

The wire diagram in the FO-4 manual will verify the placement of the oem amp meter, as to being a net charge/discharge setup, so there is no confusion to that point.

Soundguy

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DavidO

09-02-2004 08:01:50

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to souNdguy, 09-02-2004 05:25:17

SoundGuy,
Thanks for the correction. I will go back and look at the N wiring diagram. I was speaking about automobiles and what I said still goes. The N was probably wired differently as you stated for the reasons you stated. Sorry Mike, but the statements you made were so broad and I know they do not apply to automobiles.

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DavidO

09-02-2004 08:35:07

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to DavidO, 09-02-2004 08:01:50

Well, I went back and looked at the N wiring diagram and it is wired like I thought. I guess that my original statements were not well put. The ammeter is directly measuring the output of the charging device (minus the loads, headlights, etc. This is exactly how cars are wired. Most later model cars have a light instead of a meter. The red light coming on means the same thing as the ammeter on the N going to 0 (or to the minus side). The light just does not provide as much information, but a draw that exceeds the output of the charging device will cause the light to come on, even if the gen/alt is "charging". I have heard the argument that a voltmeter provides better information regarding the charging of the battery. I do not agree. It provides additional information that is helpful, but knowing how much "charge" (amps) is going into the battery is also very helpful information. As you mentioned, seeing the ammeter read on the positive side with the lights on lets you know that the battery is still being charged as you drive and that the charging device is supplying all of the current needed by the load plus some to charge the battery as well. Maybe we are all saying the same thing, but it appeared to me that Mike was saying that the ammeter should not show the current being drawn by loads such as headlights. That is what I disagree with.

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souNdguy

09-02-2004 12:27:15

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to DavidO, 09-02-2004 08:35:07

Yes.. that's the difference between net and gross charge. The N ammeter shows net charge (discharge) to the battery. That is gross charge, minus loads like lights and ignition.

If the ammeter shows a negative value, the battery is in a state of discharge.. either because the genny is not charging at all.. or not charging enough. I soppose if you wanted to be very well informed you could have a voltmeter, and amperage gauge inline with the charge device showing gross charge, and an ammeter showing net charge / discharge.

The ammeter is good for showing load.. the volt meter is good for showing system condition. However if I had a 1 wire adjustable genny.. I would want the net charge/discharge meter so as to be able to monitor charge to the battery in excess of load.

Soundguy

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ihmike(n.e.tx)

09-02-2004 08:25:57

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to DavidO, 09-02-2004 08:01:50

DavidO; I guess I kind of opened up a can of worms on this. But I like the fact that everyone is communicating on this board very respectfully, even if they disagree. And asking questions when one does not agree surely helps everyone in the long run. Respectfully, would you do this: Look again at any wiring diagram with a factory installed amp. meter. It doesn't matter if its for a welding machine or dozer or car. Trace the wires connected to the amp. meter. The only time I have seen an exception to the rule I stated before was when their was a device such as auxillary steering control that only comes on when engine stops as a safety back up device. It was something that draws power only in an extreme circumstance. If you study the wiring diagrams closely I believe you will find that the battery (usually the positive side), is the only thing hooked up to one post on the amp. meter. SouNguy helped me to understand what I was trying to explain better when he pointed out that the amp. meter on vehicles are a centered type of guage. (shows current direction).Communication on this board helps everyone understand tractors better. Thanks, everyone. Mike

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DavidO

09-02-2004 08:49:29

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to ihmike(n.e.tx), 09-02-2004 08:25:57

Mike,
Thanks for the response. As I stated above, we may all be trying to say the same thing. Basically what I am saying, that I thought was different from your original post, is that the ammeter is measuring not only the loads, but also the output of the charging device at the same time and the "net" difference is what you actually see on the ammeter. .i.e. If the headlights are drawing 10 amps and the generator is putting out 15 amps, the ammeter will read a positive 5 amps. Dell often states that "Kirchoff's Law rules". Well, this is one of Kirchoff's laws. "The sum of the currents entering a junction must equal the sum of the currents leaving a junction". That is what I think. Let me know what you think.
Respectfully,
Dave.

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ihmike(n.e.tx)

09-03-2004 08:36:31

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to DavidO, 09-02-2004 08:49:29

DavidO; I thought of one other possible reason for the confusion. When I say all wires go to one terminal of the amp. meter I don't neccessarily mean that they attach right to the back of the meter. They may be a jumper wire that goes on down to the ign. switch or regulator or junction board from one terminal of the amp. guage and then the rest of the wires to various components are hooked up at this point. But electricly they are still hooked up to that post on the amp. meter. Out at work I have many times had to add a junction board to the equipment because too many wires where being hooked to the back of the amp. meter. I just made up a rule of mine that I could remember and that is "the bat. goes to one terminal of the amp. meter and nothing else". Respectfully Mike

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ihmike(n.e.tx)

09-03-2004 08:23:06

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to DavidO, 09-02-2004 08:49:29

DavidO; It took quite a bit of studying the responses to the original post. But I think I finally saw where our "wires got crossed". Look at the original post by Rob. In it he said one wire from the amp. meter went to the alt. On the other amp. meter post were the wires that went to the starter switch and to the ballast resistor. The one going to the starter switch is probably the one that eventually is hooked up to the "hot" side of the bat. The wire going to the ballast resistor probably also runs through the ign. switch and is also where the lights, etc. gets their power from. Now think about this configuration for a moment. The amp. meter is going to measure the output of the alt. only, because all current from the alt. is going "through" the amp. guage. Amp guages that show "charge/discharge" are meant to show the charge/discharge of the bat. For this type guage to work as originally designed, wires from the alt. output,all load wires such as ignition and lights will have to be on one terminal of the amp. guage. The other terminal is hooked to the bat. hot side. This way the guage will measure any excess current to the junction as a charge to the bat. and any lack of enough current as discharge from the bat. If Rob's amp. meter is hooked up with the alt. on one side and all other wires on the other, then his amp. meter can only measure alt. output, not any discharge from the bat. as there is noway for the amp. guage to see anything else. It also cannot measure any difference in alt. output and the load as all current goes through meter not just current going to and from the bat. as originally designed. Check his original descipion of his wiring and I think this will clear it up. Respectfully, Mike

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Dell (WA)

09-01-2004 06:10:07

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 05:23:00

Rob..... ....ammeter don't care, but you care. Traditionally, ammeter reads (+) when charging the battery, positive or negative ground. 6 or 12 volt, ammeter don't care. (afterall its zero is in the center) It messes over yer eyeballs (and mind) iff'n ammeter reads (-) when your engine ir running and you know its supposed to be charging (+) the battery. So just do the ammeter terminal swap, and iff'n the ammeter indicates the WRONG polarity when charging, just re-swap the ammeter wires (engine off) and make it read correctly. Ammeter won't care. Simple eh?..... .....Dell

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Rob in VA

09-01-2004 06:47:27

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Dell (WA), 09-01-2004 06:10:07

thanks Dell,

I thought the same thing, but needed confirmation that it would not harm anything....Also, from reading the archives and the installation instructions, am I correct in assuming that I will still need the ballast resister, plus the resister in the conversion kit to ensure that I don't burn up the 12v coil??

thanks

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Dell (WA)

09-01-2004 07:10:07

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 06:47:27

Rob..... ...iff'n yer kit includes a new coil, follow the 12 volt kit wiring instructions. Did they tell you to use BOTH resistors? Then use them. Otherwize, just use the resistor they included in their kit and how their instructions say.

How do you know you have a 12 volt squarecan frontmount ignition coil? Is it labeled? Do yourself a future favor, permanently mark your coil what the coil voltage is.

You ONLY USE the "infamous ballast resistor" with the OEM 6 volt squarecan coil. And iff'n yer conversion uses the 6 volt coil to use on 12 volts, you will ALSO need a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor to use along with the ballast resistor and 6 volt coil. Understand?..... ...respectfully, Dell

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Rob in VA

09-01-2004 08:14:22

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Dell (WA), 09-01-2004 07:10:07

Dell,

the wiring diagram in the kit clearly indicates that I use their resister along with the ballast resister. A wire goes from the key switch to their resister to the ballast resister to the 12V coil they provided (it is marked with a label, but I will mark permenantly). The other wires going off the ballest resistor goes to the - side of the ampmeter and the key swith. thanks

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souNdguy

09-01-2004 11:59:54

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 08:14:22

"""the wiring diagram in the kit clearly indicates that I use their resister along with the ballast resister. A wire goes from the key switch to their resister to the ballast resister to the 12V coil they provided"""

So.. they say it is a 12v coil.. yet they want you to use their resistor AND the ballast resistor? I'd guess that isn't really a 12v coil then... perhaps it says.. 12 and then in fine print "with external resistor".. etc.

The ballast resistor and another resistor of
?unknown? value is going to be tough on a true 12v coil in getting it to make good long term hot sparkies..

Soundguy

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Rob in VA

09-01-2004 13:15:15

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to souNdguy, 09-01-2004 11:59:54

It says on the coil that it is 12 volts. I am not sure what value is of the "kit resistor" but it is plane as day on the diagram that both resistors are in line...is there another way I can find out if the coil they provided is in fact a 12 volt coil.
thanks
rob

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Dell (WA)

09-01-2004 14:05:30

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 13:15:15

Rob..... ...measure your squarecan igntition coil resistance should provide you with true identification 6 or 12 volt coil. Measure from the top terminal to eather of the 2 bottom terminals.

Here are close'nuff coil resistance values:
Secondary winding will be about 7000 ohms for eather 6 or 12 coil
Primary of 6 volt coil; about 1-ohm
Primary of 12 volt coil; about 2.5-ohms

TIP: both primarys are very low resistance compaired to the high voltage seconday. TIP: ohmmeters are NOT very accurate at low ohms (it a technical thing)
TIP: a meter reading of 0.5 to 1.5 is still considered to be about 1-ohm
TIP: a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor will be about 1.5 to 2 ohms
TIP: the "infamous ballast resistor" can measure ennywharrs from 0.5 to 1.7 ohms (depending upon its internal temperature)

Now go out there and be an electronics detective, and report back what your ohmmeter readings are and we'll help you make your 9N's 12 volt conversion less painfull..... ....Dell

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Rob in VA

09-02-2004 05:40:50

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Dell (WA), 09-01-2004 14:05:30

Dell,

Excuse the ignorance, but please define primary and secondary windings...

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Dell (WA)

09-02-2004 07:35:34

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-02-2004 05:40:50

Rob..... .....thems electrical technical terms.
Transformer..... .passive electrical device that doesn't work on Direct Current Primary..... .goes into winding
Secondary..... .comes outta winding
Ignition primary is the battery/distributor points winding
Ignition secondary is sparkies output winding
Ignition points change direct current into pulsating current that will work on transformers

note: not ALL transformers are ignition coils Your housepower pole transformer is example. Your computer has a power transformer that has 120 volt primary and multi-secondarys, some secondarys are 5 volts, some are 3 volts, some are 12 volts.
Not all transformers are power transformers
a good audio Hi-Fi set will have output transformers to match speaker impedance (measured in ohms impedance) Radios used to have RF & IF transformers before they detected the radio signal to audio signal and sent it to the speaker transformer. Now alotta boomboxes have everything done on one computer chip, lousy radios but great noise makers.
Simple, eh?..... .....respectfully, Dell

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Rob in VA

09-02-2004 19:11:11

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Dell (WA), 09-02-2004 07:35:34

Wheh, I feel like I just got out of a electrical engineer class. Now can you tell me where all these primary and secondary thingys are located...
thanks again professor

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Phil (NJ,AZ, SASK)

09-03-2004 00:46:08

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-02-2004 19:11:11

"Now can you tell me where all these primary and secondary thingys are located."..

The Primary winding is "between" the TOP of the coil bolt connector and the Pigtail Spring Connector on the base of the Coil.

The Secondary winding is "between" the Top of the coil bolt connector and the Flat Spring connector on the base of the coil.

You have something wrong with your wiring... you said the "Other" wires on the Ballast resistors/ignition switch go to the neg (battery) side of the Ammeter.

The only wire on the battery side of the Ammeter should be the battery.

The Ignition switch has one wire from the load
side of the ammeter (or Distribution Block) the other wire from the ignition switch goes to the series Ballast Resistors, as you have correctly indicated.

Hope this Helps,

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Marc NY

09-01-2004 05:46:53

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Re: 12 Volt wiring question in reply to Rob in VA, 09-01-2004 05:23:00

Rob, ammeter - goes to alt
HTH Marc

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