12 volt battery in a 6 volt system

I have been reading my F04 manual and reading some of the archive posts, but I still need some help.

My investigations have yielded this info:
12 volt battery (installed about 3 months before I bought the tractor)
Old style one wire generator, ceramic resistor block, square box (that houses cut out relay?), disconnected burned out amp meter.

I had always assumed that whoever did this tried to crank up the generator enough to charge the battery and added whatever else was need to make it a hybrid 12 volt system. I had never considered to try to figure out why.

Q1: I wanted to know if I had a 12 volt coil or a 6 volt coil so I tried this. Tell me if my logic holds: Battery had discharged down to about 10 volts when I did this, checked voltage at coil and expected it to be considerably lower, but was exactly the same as battery voltage. (Key on, not running) That makes me think it is a 12 volt coil because I have been using it this long and haven't burned out the coil. I thought the ceramic resistor would knock it down some, but maybe only if the battery was fully charged? Sound right?

Q2: I wanted to see what the output voltage of the generator was. The darn thing only has one wire so I figured how hard can it be? While the tractor was running, I put a voltmeter to the terminal and ground and got...
nothing.
Not even a bump or an erratic needle movement. Is this generator completely dead? Is there another way to check it without pulling it and hooking it up to a battery off the tractor? (I wonder if it has been decoration since I bought the tractor?) Can I check the cut out relay without the generator working?

Q3: Why was this done in the first place? I wonder if my engine is tight, in neutral I can not turn the engine by turning the fan blades or pulling on the belt. I was under the impression that I should be able to. When the battery is discharged a bit, the starter still seems to turn okay but the tractor won't start. I am thinking the starter can turn even when the battery is down to 6 volts, but the coil doesn't have enough for a good spark?

Q4: Which direction do I go? Back to 6 volts or up to 12. It is a working tractor, but I still prefer the look of the generator to an alternator. With the parts I have described, is it cheaper to go in one direction or another? (has 12 volt battery, lights, resistor block? coil?, but 6 volt generator, relay)

Thanks in advance for any help!
Darren

Q1) you need to check your frontmount coil top terminal with the points CLOSED. Because with the points open, you will ALWAYS read battery volts. This is normal electrical circuit stuff.

How to tell if'n yer points are closed? Read the terminal volts and turn your engine over sloooly. You can puttchur tranny in 2nd gear and push on big levers called tractor rear tires while watching the meter. Or you can pull all yer sparkies and turn the fanblade and watch yer meter. If'n yer turning the engine, the meter will change volts, from battery volts to sumptin else. Its the sumptin else volts that you're concerned with. If'n you read about 3 volts, its the OEM 6 volt squarecan frontmount coil done right with both the "infamous ballast resistor" and the 12 to 6 volt converting resistor. If'n ya reads about 6 volts, its just the OEM 6 volt coil with ONLY the 12 to 6 volt converting resistor. If'n ya reads about 8 volts, its a modern 12 volt replacement coil thru the "infamous ballast resistor" and ye'll have weak sparkies and hard starting. If'n ya reads about 11 volts, its a modern 12 volt frontmount coil done right.

Q2) yep, probably dead. You could try to "motor" it by disconnecting the fanbelt and quickly connect a heavy JUMPER WIRE from the BATTERY to the genny's ARM terminal. (that is the ONLY terminal on a 1-wire 3rd brush genny). If'n the genny doesn't turn, ya gotts genny problems.

The 2-terminal roundcan cut-out relay can kinda be checked on the tractor by measureing from eather terminal to ground. With the tractor off, you should read battery volts on one side and zero volts on other side. The cut-out relay just disconnects the battery from the genny when the engine stops so the genny gutts don't suck the volts outta the battery overnite. Cut-out relay don't care 6 or 12 volts, but it do care that it is "polarized" otherwize it won't disconnect when the engine stops turning the genny.

Q3) Remember the 1-terminal 3rd brush genny depends upon you the operator, to MANUALLY ADJUST the genny volts out. You can actually get about 17 volts unloaded, which is why some well intentioned shadetree mechanics try to convert the 1-wire genny 9N/2N's to 12 volts by just turning the 3rd brush up and putting in a 12 volt battery. Unloaded means "not connected to the battery". Loaded by a 12 volt battery, you might get 3 amps of charge for the battery or suck up the 3 amps running your ignition system. Eventually, yer gonna run outta 12 volt battery and it won't start.

Q4) HOW CHALLENGED are you electrically? Me? I'd give serious consideration to the merits of a 1-wire 12 volt alternator with its built-in voltage regulator. Some 60's Ford Falcolns had 12 volt generators with EXTERNAL squarecan voltage regulator. I'm not that much of a fan of 12 volt stealth conversion. Alternators are so much more efficent..... .....respectfully, Dell

A 12 volt advocate for the right reasons. That said, I haven't found the right reason to convert my eazy starting 52 8N to 12 volts, and I know how to do it right, the first time.

I rechecked my volts at the coil with the points closed this time, and got about 3 volts.

You said this voltage would indicate a 6 volt coil with original ballast resistor and an additional 12 to 6 converting resistor. But...I can't seem to find the ballast resistor. Unless what I thought was the cut out relay is instead the ballast resistor. What I have is in a square box with only two terminals. I will take it out and pull the cover off to see what it houses. I definitely do not have a terminal block of any kind. Just some wires wire nutted together. As I mentioned there is also a ceramic resistor.

When you recommended a one wire alternator as a possible solution, is the charging at higher rpms the only disadvantage over a 3 wire alternator? Is the advantage ease of hooking it up?

Thanks,
Darren

The frontmount uses the "infamous ballast resistor" mounted on the backside of your dashpanel under the ammeter. It usually looks like a rusty coilspring and gets HOT. (burnie-burnie) and for a 12 volt conversion, you need ALSO a 12 to 6 volt converting resistor wired in series (like flashlight batterys) with the ballast resistor.

I've seen 12 to 6 volt converting resistors that look like hockeypucks, round hollow ceramic tubes, square ceramic blocks so its kinda hard to say. I've also known of frontmount conversions that combine BOTH the conversion and ballast resistors into 1 square ceramic resistor. (electrically, this is eazy to do but NEGATES the ballast resistors cold temperature effect for eazier cold starting) But with 12 volts on the starter, it really isn't an issue.

I'm not a fan of the "deceptively desirable" 1-wire alternator conversion. But is is EAZIER TO HOOKUP which is why I suggested you consider its merits. I don't like jazzing a cold engine to 1800 rpms just to get the residual magnitizm to start the generating process.

The 1-wire alternator is quite popular with old 6 volt automobiles where you usually run your engine to about 2500 rpms before you let the clutch out to start moving the car down the road. Which automatically gets yer 1-wire alternator charging. Remember, your N-Engine specs: 400 rpms idle, and 2200 rpms MAX.

The cut-out relay is a 2-terminal roundcan device mounted on the steering column under the battery shelf. It is NOT the round starter switch which has BIG (thick as your thumb) battery cables. I am NOT aware of any 2-terminal squarecan cut-out relays.

If'n you decide that a 3-wire 12 volt alternator conversion is better for you, PLEASE eather e-mail me for my comments or START a new QUESTION at the front of this great N-Board because I won't be checking this far back again..... ...respectfully, Dell

In Darren's case where he already has a "bassterdized" 1-wire 12 volt conversion, it becomes expedent to consider the merits of a 1-wire alternator with built-in voltage regulator. Note: I also did NOT recommend a conversion to stealth 12 volt generator with external 3-wire voltage regulator.

But if'n Darren wants to pursue the 3-wire 12 volt alternator option that starts charging at about 500 rpms instead of about 1800 rpms that the deceptively desirable 1-wire does, then I'm here to help him.

I'm not certain about your 1-wire alternator, when you checked your alternator output, was your NAA-Engine running wide open? It'd almost haffta to get yer alternator chargin'. There really isn't any difference between the 8N and the NAA electrically systems speaking. There are some internal voltage regulator differences inside the box. But most convertions throw the VR box away ennyways. Since you already have a 1-wire alternator "KIT", I'd stay with that and make certain that I wired it correctly..... ...Dell

If your alt is ok.. just figure out how to excite it, and then isolate the ignition so you can shut the tractor off, and you will be in business.

let us know some more details.

Soundguy

As for exciting it.. you'll need to know what type it is.. then one of the alternator guru's here can tell you what terminals to use. Many ways.. from a diode, to a marker light. to a momentary switch.. even some real complicated ones..

As for the 2 big, 2 little pronged solenoid.. that is obviously a replacement as the oem ford was 2 big poles, one little one.. and was wired internally hot... so the big thumb switch just grounded the little terminal allowing the 2 big poles to connect.. etc.

If you can get the starter to engage in gear, then I'll gues you are not using the big thumb tranny interlocked switch... I would recomend you going back to using it.

On some of the 4 prong setups ( isolated ones ), it is easy... obviously battery + to one of the big poles, and then the other big pole out to the starter.
Then if it is the isolated kind, you can hook one of the small prongs up to bat +, and the other prong upto the thumb switch.. which grnds the circuit when you hit it. Be carefull when testing this out... There are many 4 prong non-isolated solenoids.. and just hitting the + wire to the little prong actuates it.. as it is grounded to the stater frame.. etc.

The ignition circuit is seperate from the starting circuit... even the old N's will crank the starter over when the key is off... If you want the key as a safety, and you are using a 4 prong isolated solenoid like I described, use the switched power from the key to the solenoid, instead of from the battery.
I don't think i would try this with the oem switch.. it isn't too durable.. and doubt it would carry the few amps of field pull in current for the solenoid, and the 3-4 ignition amps. etc. If it is a replaced switch.. if it is good for 7-10 amps, should be good to go.

Soundguy