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4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking

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Jason Z in MO

10-31-2006 19:14:10




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MSB and others,

The tractor has been sitting a couple of days without running. I removed the timing window and a little fuel spilled out so not sure how much of the black plastic pieces might have washed away but I did find two tiny pieces on the window gasket. Not sure if thats significant or should find a lot more if there is a real problem?

I rotated the engine with a screw driver through the flywheel timing cover and found the pump is off a few degrees from TDC. If I read the service manual correctly a 4020 should be statically timed at TDC and the pump timing marks in line. In my case, the pump is about 1/8" before the indicator or with pump marks lined up, the flywheel is several degrees after TDC. I didn't change it, wanted to confirm with the book.

Anything else I can do to diagnose my throttle sticking problem?

Thanks!

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Dale in IN

11-01-2006 03:15:05




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Jason Z in MO, 10-31-2006 19:14:10  
Before you mess withe the pump try pulling up on your foot throttle pedal. These some times get a little sticky and a good shot of wd -40 will free them up. Been there done that.



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Jason Z in MO

11-01-2006 06:33:12




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Dale in IN, 11-01-2006 03:15:05  
The throttle linkages are free. The problem occurs while manually operating the throttle bell crank at the injection pump.

Thanks, I appreciate any suggestions!



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Bob

11-01-2006 07:57:34




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Jason Z in MO, 11-01-2006 06:33:12  
The lever on the pump's throttle shaft pushes on a spring inside the top cover of the IP that slides up and down over a pin that screws in from the OUTSIDE of the IP. I have seen that pin get galled, or rusty, so the spring mechanism can't slide smoothly over it, causing the governor to "hang up". Have you checked that pin?



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Jason Z in MO

11-01-2006 09:36:31




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Bob, 11-01-2006 07:57:34  
No, I haven't.

Sounds like I need to remove the cover to inspect the parts?



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msb

10-31-2006 21:14:02




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Jason Z in MO, 10-31-2006 19:14:10  
Just be sure that you are turning the flywheel in the correct direction .To turn it in the wrong direction will give you a false read. Yes, it is timed TDC and a 1/8" is too far off.

I am going to disagree with JD on a couple points.First if all he is correct in that the pump is really not that complicated, but after rebuilding well over a thousand, I can say with confidence that there is no way that the untrained should tackle such a job if a really good job is expected.There is enough dirt alone imbedded in some person's hand as to keep them from doing even a passing job.There is also enough dirt and dust in the air of most shops that will result in a shoddy job.That is why pumps should only be opened in a "clean" room.JD is also correct about the "fit" of some of the parts and the fact that wear can only be detected by the human eye.The question in mind is who ,but the most experienced can tell simply by looking what is acceptable as wear and what is not.Only by running a pump on a test stand can that be determined that for the novice.Have a couple pumps fail the cranking test on a test stand and have to do them all over will soon train a person what will pass the cranking test and what won't.Would you believe that holding the piston plungers in your hand even for a few seconds will not allow you to reinstall then in the pump head? That is how close the "fit" is. There are several other areas that only experience will be the guide to doing a bang up job.Things like the shaft bushing--how much wear is acceptable.The throttle shaft---yes, one comes in a repair kit, but can the governor performance be improved by working even a new one over?The answer is yes. Do you have a go/no go tool to set the governor link?I could go on and on and on , but I will stick by my recommendation.Take it to an authorized repair station and have an expert rebuild it. I don't want to be too critical of JD. I am sure he has done several pumps that have performed just fine without the benefit of what I speak, but how would the novice know? If the parts were still as cheap as they were 40 years ago, it would not be so bad to lick one over, but only one screw up might cost you far more than you could ever save by trying to repair one yourself.

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jdemaris

11-01-2006 06:48:38




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 Magic injection pumps? in reply to msb, 10-31-2006 21:14:02  
I can't say I disagree with what you say in spirit - but by your reasoning - the same can be applied to anything mechanical. Nobody should try rebuilding an engine, a cylinder head, a starter, and alternator, a magneto, a carburetor, etc. - unless they have some expertise, some smarts, the correct service information, and the correct tools. The way modern society has been going - fewer and fewer people are doing things for themselves anymore. No wonder so many people are broke and repair costs are so high. I like to think - that many who use this forum - are doing so out of an interest in learning to do more for themselves, not learn how to pay other's to do it for them. Most materials used in the pumps are pretty rugged and can take more abuse then some people claim. And, a test stand is not necessary if you have the access to the complete machine since all needed adjustments can be done on-site. But, without a running engine - a stand is absolutely necesssary. Parts are cheaper today than they were 30 years ago. That because Stanadyne/Roosamaster no longer has a monopoly on them - and there are several aftermarket companies selling the parts. I've been using Spaco parts from Italyk and been very satisfied with them. When I first worked for a Deere dealer - we had our own pump test-stand, our own piston pin fitting machine, piston regroover and skirt knurler, valve refacing equipment, flwyeel and cylinder head refacing equipment, engine dyno, cylinder boring machine, etc. etc. We rarely ever sent anything out - and our history of screwups was less than when - in later dealerships - we started sending stuff out to "specialized" repair shops. In fact, I recently sent out four connecting rods to an "automotive machine shop" for routine big-end resizing,and they ruined all four. They blamed it on a bad micrometer. In my opinion, that is an unforgiveable mistake for what is supposed to be - a professional machine shop. In regard - again - to injection pumps. They are no more complicated than many carburetors, closed-center hydraulic pumps, etc. In fact - in some ways - a Roosamaster injection pump is simpler -than let's say a Rochester Quadrajet carburetor. At least with the injection pump - I can see every part, port, and fuel channel. And in regard to the necessity of a "clean room" - it's all BS to me. Nice to have- yes. Absolutey necessary? No. Common sense is what is needed. I've repaired many injection pumps, out in the woods, on the tailgate of my service truck and - in forty years of working on this stuff - never had a single return or failure due to dirt-intrusion. Yes, there were many times I'd be out in woods - and some logger would be anxious to get his 440 skidder or 350 crawler going. I'd pull his pump apart - and see worn parts that ought to be replaced - and not have them with me. But - I'd tell the guy - and give him the choice of patching the thing up to get him going right away - or lay the machine up and do it right. The choice was up to the customer. To the converse, since the CB, DB an JDB pumps had a high failure rate due to certain parts of little cost - many could be repaired correctly with a few hour's work and $50 in parts. Same still holds true today(except CB parts are scarce). Paying someone over $300 - sometimes well over that amount - for a pump that needs $50 in parts does not hold well with me. I would not have the nerve to charge someone for an exchange pump if that was all that was needed.

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Mike M

11-01-2006 07:40:13




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 Re: Magic injection pumps? in reply to jdemaris, 11-01-2006 06:48:38  
You are a rare breed and I hope some of those around you are takeing advantage of your experiences. It's really too bad being an apprentice is a thing of the past. I always thought of the injection pump shops as a racket also. Back I think in the mid 80's these shops charged about the same for a reman pump as I could sell someone a NEW unit from John Deere for.I worked at a Deere dealership in parts then. Too bad we didn't have someone like you around here as I'm sure many could of been put back in service cheaply.

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jdemaris

11-01-2006 07:56:12




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 Re: Magic injection pumps? in reply to Mike M, 11-01-2006 07:40:13  
At our dealership, we often experienced the same. I remember on one occasion, we had a 450 crawler with a trashed CB pump. Most parts for those pumps, even in 1979, were obsolete. John Deere was selling change-over kits to put brand new JDB pumps on in place. The entire kit from Deere with a brand-new (not rebuilt) pump, driveshaft, drive gear, new lines, etc. was around $850. We called several pump shops and they were charging $650 for just a rebuilt pump if we had no JDB core to trade in - and that was JUST the pump - not the other parts needed for the conversion. That got us to do some checking, and we priced the same JDB pump from Deere - brand new. It was $625 list and 500 something our cost. So - the new pump via Deere Co. was cheaper than a rebuilt from a pump-shop.

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jdemaris

10-31-2006 19:49:46




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Jason Z in MO, 10-31-2006 19:14:10  
I don't know how long you've owned the tractor - and/or if you know the history of it. If the plastic dampener came apart a long time ago, and someone attempted flushing it out, then most of the debris might be gone. I've taken apart plenty that were all clean inside and none of the old dampener was left. Make sure you check the housing-pressure regulating valve - it is the first thing to get plugged with debris. It is the fitting that attaches to the return-fuel line and should have a small spring and ball in it. If it is plugged, the tractor will surge, run erratically, and probably keep quitting on you. The plastic dampener is not your "governor", it's just a vibration dampener attached to the centrifugal flyweights - and when it's completely gone, the governor will still work. But. . . when a pump has been run a long time without it, there are steel rivets hammering against a steel plate that cause metal debris that work their way throughout the pump. I've have worked on pumps that had your symptoms - for several different specific reasons - which aren't worth discussing - since they most entail taking the pump apart. Short of taking the pump off and apart, #1 make sure there are no air bubbles in your fuel. Air bubbles can give you similar symptoms and prevent the throttle from working properly. #2 - take the three-bolt cover off the pump - and make sure the metering valve is moving freely. I have never seen one stick unless there is actually some sort of debris on it. But - even if it is free - they wear out and can also cause those symptoms. It can be removed and checked with ten minutes work if you know what you are doing. To check it - you just look at it (no measurements involved). The metal surace should look uniform. If you see any spots that are discolored and/or shinier than the rest - it is worn out. Many of metal parts in these pumps work on tolerances too small to be measured with a mike - usually 10ths of thousanths. So, most such parts are fitted by feel - and wear is checked visually. I don't know what else to tell you - since I cannot possibly tell you how to repair a pump in a few paragraphs. I will say though - they are not very complicated. I don't understand why people are so hesitant to work on them, yet will work on engines, valves in cylinder heads, magnetos, hyraulic pumps, etc. An injection pump is just a high pressure hydraulic pump with a few added controls. Biggest hurdle is getting your hands on service information. Other tractor companies that used DB pumps, like Ford and Allis Chalmers, put all the pump service info in their service manuals. But Deere did not - it was all put in a separate Deere manual SM-2045.

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Jason Z in MO

11-01-2006 09:18:45




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to jdemaris, 10-31-2006 19:49:46  
JD,

The tractor is new to me and I really don't know anything about the history. I do believe it had sat for a long time. Which is why I was hoping the throttle was just sticking.

How do I check for air bubbles in the fuel?

I will also pull the cover off you mentioned and look it over.

With regard to getting my hands dirty, JD you are right I want to learn as much as I can and do as much of the work myself, if possible. I'm not a professional but I'm not opposed to opening it up if I have confidence I'm doing the right thing and can get the job done. I will lean on my service books and the fine folks on this board to guide me.

However, I don't have SM-2045 for this job. I assume special tools may be required as well.

Sounds like I need the manual to at least appreciate what is required to rebuild and fine tune.

Funny you mentioned the 440 skidder, my brother has one for his logging business!

Thank you all!

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jdemaris

11-01-2006 09:33:35




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to Jason Z in MO, 11-01-2006 09:18:45  
Checking for air bubbles is easy if you have a glass fuel filter. Some 4020s have them and some don't. A less perfect way to look for air is crack a bleeder screw with the engine running and see if you get a clear stream of fuel - or an air-bound foamy stream. If you can't borrow - and don't want to buy the SM-2045 manual (still available from Deere), try finding someone that has an IH, Ford, or AC book. My AC manual for my Allis Chalmers HD4 has all the detailed info on repairing that pump. My Ford 4000 Industrial also has it all. I'm sure other's do as well. No special tools absolutely needed - except the fluted Bristol wrench for removal of one screw. I've had some people say that they ground down a Torx bit and made it work. I can't say I ever tried that. You can buy the wrench for around $10. A timing window is also nice to have so you can later check and/or adjust the automatic fuel timing advance. That is nice to have - even if you are NOT rebuilding a pump - if you own any equipment with a DB or JDB pump.

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Jason Z in MO

11-01-2006 12:03:09




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 Re: 4020 DB injection pump / throttle sticking in reply to jdemaris, 11-01-2006 09:33:35  
No glass fuel filter or sediment bowl fuel pump. I assume you're talking about a bleeder screw on the filter?

I'm looking for the SM-2045 manual. Might as well add that one to the collection.

Are the timing windows available from Deere? Would I be able to see air in the fuel with one installed?

Thanks for all your time!



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