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4020 Diesel hard start

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bleed GREEN

09-20-2005 19:12:00

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Ideas ?? Have a 1970 4020 diesel power shift that is hard starting. Seems to have good power doent use oil 1500 hrs on overhaul. Seems to crank slow new batteries and starter rebuilt. 1 quick small shot of ether and fires right up. Even difficult to start when warm. Any body ran into this ?

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lonzo

09-22-2005 18:01:44

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-20-2005 19:12:00

when that problem came along the tractors used two 6 volt batteres and the combins used 2 12volt batteres. the combins would crank faster and tractors slower, same starter, same engin, i started useing to 12volts in the tractors hook parallel and got my cranking speed up if the starter was in good shape.

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jdemaris

09-21-2005 05:27:18

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-20-2005 19:12:00

It is a very common problem if it cranks slowly - 9 out of 10 times the problem is the hydraulic system. Put a $5 manual destroker on the hydraulic pump and you will see a huge difference - and the starter motor and batteries will have much longer lives. Now, if it is cranking fast - a few other issues could be involved. Most 4020s start better with the static fuel injection pump timing bumped up a few degrees. Another issue is that of valve depth in the cylinder head. Hopefully, whoever did the valve job did it right - because the head depth is critical on your engine. If it's wrong, cold starting will be greatly affected. If someone refaced the valves, and reground the seats - than the valves will be too deep. Usually, seat inserts or valves with thicker than normal heads must be installed to maintain the proper depth.

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Glen Anderson

09-22-2005 09:47:45

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to jdemaris, 09-21-2005 05:27:18

I've heard of these manual de-strokers but I've never seen one before. I'm assuming they mount on the stroke control housing in one of the ports? How do they operate, manually or electrically?

Thanx

Glen

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jdemaris

09-23-2005 05:39:59

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to Glen Anderson, 09-22-2005 09:47:45

The manual destroker is installed by simply removing a plug from the top of the pump and replacing it with the destroker. It is basically just a plug with a threaded bolt running through it and a "T-handle" mounted on the top of the bolt. So, you turn the "T-handle" in, clockwise to shut the pump off. Once the tractor starts, you turn the handle back out so the hydraulics will work. The unit can be fabricated if needed, but they should be available cheap from Deere (well, maybe nothing is cheap anymore). I used to carry a bag full of them when on road-calls as a Deere mechanic. They used to cost $3 or $4 apiece. They come with standard threads or metric, it all depends if you have an original hydrauic pump or a newer replacement. Deere also used, on some applications, an automatic electric destroker. It is expensive and does not work any differently than the manual T-handle - except it operates automatically whenever the starter motor is turning. Older hydraulic pumps do NOT have the tapped-bore in the control-valve-housing to accept it - so a complete kit is needed that used to cost over $400 back in the 1980s - God knows what it would cost now. If you have a newer, or replacement pump, many come equipped with the tapped bore ready to accept an electric destroker - which means all you have to buy is the destroker solenoid itself - which will still be expensive - but a lot less than the entire kit. The electric destrokers were often used in equipment that couldn't be parked near electricity for running block heaters. We often had them in log skidders, and sometimes farm tractors that were often left out in field in the winter.

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bleed GREEN

09-29-2005 17:59:53

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to jdemaris, 09-23-2005 05:39:59

jd, thanks for the info on the destroker I will check with the local Deere dealer and see if I can get one. Is there markings on the pump that will tell me if it is the original or a newer pump ?? Thanks, Bud

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lonzo

10-04-2005 01:03:41

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-29-2005 17:59:53

the destroke valve is alright but your only putting a bandaid on the problem, who wants to screw in the valve climb the tractor start it climb down un screw the valve climbe back on and go to workl everytime you stop the engin, the money for the electric valve needs to be used for repairing the problem, don't work on it, fix it

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lonzo

10-04-2005 01:03:23

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-29-2005 17:59:53

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Glen Anderson

09-23-2005 07:32:16

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to jdemaris, 09-23-2005 05:39:59

jdemaris, do think it would be possible to tap the threads in the stroke control housing yourself or have a machine shop do it? I like the idea of the electric destroker, having it energized with the starting circuit during cranking.

Thanx

Glen

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jdemaris

09-23-2005 19:06:32

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to Glen Anderson, 09-23-2005 07:32:16

At the least, it would be difficult, maybe even impossible. The electric destroker that installs in the side of control-valve housing operates differently than the manual destroker. I suspect the housing that is made for the electric unit has different hydraulic porting in it that the non-destroker housing - but I can't say I ever cut one apart to observe the difference. The manual destroker screws into the top of the housing instead of the side, and exerts mechanical pressure directly on the hydraulic stroke-control valve and holds it open.

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Glen Anderson

09-23-2005 19:29:48

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to jdemaris, 09-23-2005 19:06:32

Thanx for the info.

Glen

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txgrn

09-21-2005 18:10:22

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to jdemaris, 09-21-2005 05:27:18

Hey j,

Don't they offer different thickness head gaskets for that engine too?

And Bleed Green, I forgot yesterday, take the drive coupling off your pump (5 min job) and try starting. That will ID the pump (hyd pressure) as your culprit in a heartbeat if she fires right up.

Mark

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jdemaris

09-22-2005 05:28:57

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to txgrn, 09-21-2005 18:10:22

I haven't kept up with the parts updates from Deere, but I think they shyed away from "graded" head-gaskets and pistons. I haven't worked for a Deere dealer since 1990 - so I'm a little out of the loop. Back in the 80s, Deere was having smoke and cold-starting problems with a lot of equipment, new and old. After several attempts to address the issue (including thinner head gaskets, over-height pistons, advanced static timing, etc.), I think they standardized their parts and stuck to using a higher top piston-ring groove. New machines that NEVER started well was one issue, but we also had the case of tractors built in the 60s that always started well, then we'd do a rebuild, and they'd start lousy with the new parts. This all came to a head when Deere introduced their "40" series AG tractors with German engines. Some started great at 20 degrees F, some would not start at 60 - and when they did they smoked something awful. Soon after, Deere had a pile of mechanical four-wheel drive tractors with the wrong gears in the front axles - i.e. the front wheels turned a different speed than the back - and the first time the farmer drove the tractor on grass in 4WD, it tore everything up. I probably split and fixed close to 50 of them just in our area. What a mess! Simply put, Deere had a bad quality-control problem. In regard to the 4020 and the hydraulic pump - yes, unhooking the split coupler for a test is fine. But, it's a lot easier to just install a manual destroker in the top of the pump - and it can be left in place permanently. It's a five minute job.

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txgrn

09-23-2005 04:07:49

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thanks for the info in reply to jdemaris, 09-22-2005 05:28:57

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txgrn

09-21-2005 04:59:29

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-20-2005 19:12:00

With a fresh overhaul you'd think that low compression was not the culprit. So moving on.....

Slow rotation of the engine could keep the cylinders from generating enough heat to explode the fuel.....so does it seem to roll over lazily or do you get a good whirrrrr rrrrr rrrr?

I think if you had a rebuild problem it would be with you ether or not. So I'm ruling out fuel timing and distribution.

I totally support measuring the starter voltage as specified by buick. You should have 95% of your battery voltage there.....if not you found your problem....bad cables, too small, or dirty connections, or the new batteries are not getting fully charged up.

A thought. To spin your engine with it's new compression takes a lot more juice than needed when compression was sloppy. So problems in the high current starting loop would be more pronounced.

Have a look and get back on here.

Mark

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buickanddeere

09-20-2005 20:34:57

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-20-2005 19:12:00

What is the voltage measured between the actual post going into the starter motor and the motor's cast iron case? How accurate was the injection pump timed? Is the hydraulic pump de-ctroker working? Any difference when you disconnect the PS trans?

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bleed GREEN

09-21-2005 18:18:23

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to buickanddeere, 09-20-2005 20:34:57

1st thanks to all that have replied ! It doesnt seem to increase the cranking speed when I disconnect the trans. I have put all new cables and ends on the batteries and they are clean and tight. Havent tested for voltage at starter sounds like a good idea I will. Not sure what is the hyd pump destroker ?? Also not sure on injector pump timing is there a easy way to check ? Tractor was overhauled before I bought it I Did get invoices to show it was done.

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txgrn

09-22-2005 03:56:51

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to bleed GREEN, 09-21-2005 18:18:23

Not sure the timing is your problem. If timing, it should effect performance also as there is a very small range that the timing has to be in for he engine to operate. If the tractor runs and pulls good and accelerates smartly with a throttle increase, I'd look elsewhere.

Mark

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txgrn

09-22-2005 04:04:40

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Re: 4020 Diesel hard start in reply to txgrn, 09-22-2005 03:56:51

Now I had a Ford I purchased that required ether for starting even in hot weather. Once running it ran really well. If you see the salesman grab a can of ether, in the summer, to start a prospective purchase..... RUN.

I tried all sorts of things to improve the starting including a new starter. Seems mine had a 4" starter and the diesels were supposed to have a 5" (diameter) starter (more powerful) but still no help. Did all the things mentioned here and all were ok.

Finally bit the bullet and did an inframe. Could not believe the rings when I tore it down.....they were over half worn out....I mean that when you put new and old side by side, half the metal of the old was gone. Couldn't believe it ran as good as it did with the rings in that bad a shape (once you got her going). Gotta have that compression to get her to light off.

$1000 and a lot of work later (on the overhaul) and she started right up even down to 40 degrees with no assistance.

Mark

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