H still not starting - Day 5!

I have never seen a machine that worked perfect when I parked it in the fall give me such a fit getting it running again. I've done just about everything I can think of as suggested in a previous post.

http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=759568

Here's the summary:

parked it in the fall, under roof (dry). Treated fuel, shut off fuel at tank. Carb was rebuilt professionally last summer with good results.

Went to start it over the weekend, and it won't fire once. Not a cylinder. I replaced today and yesterday: Coil, wires, cap. points and condesner were replaced last year... Pulled the plugs, dry. They were new last year. It won't even fire with 'quick start' spray direct into intake of carb. It sometimes backfires out of the carb throat with a "puff" and one time it actually ignited out the carb throat. (grabbed the extinguisher after that one) Nothing coming out of the exhaust. There is good suction at the carb throat with my hand over it. There is pressure out of the exhust.

I pulled the carb and I could hear the float rattling around in there. It looks largely clean inside, but I did not pull it apart. From what I guess, is that even if the needle or jets were plugged it would still flutter and put put put a bit with quik spray @ the carb throat..(right?)

With carb off (and on), there's good suction @ the intake manifold.

I had it cranking so much that I got up to 60 PSI oil pressure. I checked the cylinder pressure and all 4 range from 80 to 90 psi.

I've pulled all 4 plugs and did a spark test against the block. I get good spark from the plugs, mostly blue spark.

When cranking the engine with the cap off distributor, there's a arching blue spark between the points. Is this normal? If I'm getting spark at the plugs, does that rule out electrical? If I pull the points apart and let them go together there is spark there.

I put some gas in the cylinders and tried to crank, and I can't say for sure if it was actual cylinder detonation, or backfire out the carb it happened so fast and my "syringe" that I was using to get the gas in there melted so I couldn't do it again. I need a turkey baster.

At this point, I really don't know where to turn. Spark, oil pressure, cyl pressure, and fuel.....what am I not seeing? (esp since this machine was in prefect order in October and now it's a nightmare)

Will quick start spray into carb fire the engine if everything else is in good order? Is this electrical or fuel related?

I'm beside myself on this one.....It's ruining my sleep!

Help appreciated.

I know you dont want to hear it, but drain ALL the fuel out! This ethanol gas doesnt keep too long, even when treated. That along with sitting durring winter with all the snow/moisture. Ethanol gas absorbs moisture. Drain the carb, lines, sediment bowl, ect. Double check timing and I"ll bet you will have a tractor ride set this weekend. Good luck!

Oh yea, I forgot, I drained the tank, and added 5 gallons of fresh fuel. Like I said, I'm really at a loss as to what I'm overlooking. I did not drain the sediment bowl, but I did remove the carb, dumped it out, and pulled the drain plug on the bottom of it and let the fuel run out of it to ensure that the fuel was present. At this point I'd like to either rule out electic or fuel to focus on one or the other.

I would say that dry plugs says it all. Plugged passages in the carb. Gas evaporates up through the jets, leaving behind residue that eventually plugs them. Especially with 87 octane.

I generally use brake cleaner as a starting aid for gas engines. Not nearly so difficult to use as ether. And yes you can run one with no fuel in the carb. You can run small engines with fumes from a milk jug.

Be very careful dumping raw gas into a machine. It doesn't ignite well, and a slow burn may go to a full pop and blow burning gas out onto you. Know a guy who did it with a JD two banger. Skin grafts.

Dan, with all the cranking you did. If you pull the choke do you get fuel running out of the carb? Never heard you say you had fuel running out or flooded? If you get fuel running out of line at carb connection. you have fuel to carb but not out. I think you are not getting gas through your carb. Needle stuck or jet cloged.
Should also check timming I don't know why you are getting puff or fire out of carb.
Oldiron29

Would brake cleaner run it even with the jets plugged? Is complete disassembly of carb and soaking in order?

It needs cleaned, so I'd pull it apart. It may be just the needle stuck, but I was thinking you had already shook it enough to rattle it loose. If you don't have a bowl drain to test it with, pop the bowl off and have a look see. The carb throat itself usually doesn't correlate with bowl gunkage at all.

Something most don't think about is that the fuel shut off almost always leaks slowly, so gas drivels slooooowly into the bowl and get evaporated up through the various passages into the intake manifold. It makes a mess after a while. I have seen main jets plugged solid after only 4 months when parked out side in a hot region.

Yes you can spray brake cleaner into the intake and make it run. The spray puts out more than you need so I prime it with a short shot and then add bursts as it takes off. With practice you can keep them running for minutes.

If I pull the choke, it pukes gas after cranking, yes. I stopped choking because I didn't want to flood it.

The tried and true redneck mechanic solution is to put everything back together and pull start it with another tractor often that will clean things out and fire it right up. Even the late Hugh approved of this method.

I had a MM Z plug up in storage with the same symptoms, Since you have gas coming out during choking I think your jets are plugged. This may not work for you but I held my hand over the carb inlet completely sealing it and my BIL cranked it over putting all the suction on the gas circuits and after about a minute it pulled through and we took it on a 17 mile ride.

Mine don't start unless the choke is pulled so the carb is fully closed and gas is running on the ground.

That and I have to hold my tongue right. Are you holding yours right?

Are you sure you have your plug wires in the correct firing order on the cap? Should be like this on the cap. Hal

2-1
4-3 rotor turns CW.

PS: I would remove No1 plug near the radiator and bring that piston to TDC on the compression stroke. Then see where your rotor is pointing. Something may have jumped time. The rotor should be pointing to the No1 plug tower.

I have to ask. the very very first time you tried to start it, did it fire once then begin this behavior?

Might want to pull the distributor, and check the gear on the end. Make sure the gear is intact (ie. no teeth missing) and not spinning on the shaft. also, have you checked to see if the rotor is spinning while cranking, ie. the tab is not broken off inside the rotor.

Based upon your description of the "back fire", you are definately out of time. If what you have stated is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt you, the tractor is firing with the intake valves open (ie. not completely closed).

just a thought............if you already haven't done this.

Disconnect the gas line at the carburetor and see if there's a full flow of gas from the gas line. Catch the gas in a clean container. If this looks ok remove the main jet adjusting screw
near the bottom of the carburetor as see if any gas runs out. Hal

Pull all spark plugs and squirt motor oil in each cylinder (3-4 pumps) to assure greater compression. Crank a few revolutions to spread the oil around the cylinder and re-build the sealing ability of the piston rings.
The spark leaving the coil to distributor wire (distributor cap end) should be bright blue and snappy jumping at least a 1/4" gap.
If you haven't changed the timing since last fall, the spark is strong, and the compression is decent, about all that is left is the fuel supply.
Send me an e-mail so I can give you my phone #; maybe I can help sort out the problem for you.

You need to do as one poster suggested, make sure your distributor has not sheared a pin or taken some teeth out. You have to establish that you are getting that spark to the cyl at the proper time, pull number one spark plug, put your finger over the hole and crank by hand until you feel compression. Then align the timing mark, will be two close together, five degrees apart, first one is tdc. Now your points should be just opening in their normal direction of rotation of the distributor. Until you establish this you are just guessing. The reason you see spark at the points when cranking with dist cap off is the secondary in coil is building high voltage against an open circuit, therefore the voltage in primary winding builds higher than normal and arcs at the points. There are as many different ways to check for a good spark as there are people doing it. It sounds like you have spark but at wrong time. And yes indeed, it will run by spraying gasoline, or starting fluid or many other flamable fluids into intake even with out a carburetor one it. Keep trying, you will get it but be very careful around the carburetor and using various fluids.

Put new plugs in it.You may have good spark but if it doesn't jump the gap under compression, it will not fire up but will backfire etc.If you have gas coming out of the carb after choking, the jets are open. also if it doesn't fire up on starting fluid you have an ignition problem.

Please try this. Put gasoline in a pump oil can. Pull all 4 plugs put them on a brick and use a propane torch to heat them each until the ground electrode just begins to turn red. As they begin to cool use the squirt can to put one squirt in each hole. Use gloves and or a rubber hose to put the warm plugs back in the holes. They need to be at least three fourths of the threads in, no need to torque them. Start it up. It will run. Jim

omg....I can't see that just parking it would entail a sheared gear tooth on the distrib.....but my luck is very bad. I'm still trying to rule out either a fuel or ignition prob so I can focus on one. If the distrib is firing at the wrong time.....would that prevent no ignition at all? I thought that if it is out of time for some reason that it would fire, but run badly. It does not fire at all....even with spray starter. with spark! this is crazy. Can you imagine that you parked a tractor, or any other gas powered thing under roof and you go to start it and you get what I've got? I'm really pulling my hair out on this one.

Try the method I indicate below. the reality is that some additives in fuels can and do make compounds that can coat the spark plugs and fowl them. it is not even really visible on the plug insulator. A heated still warm plug will fire the fuel. I would not continue to "remedy" that which might not be broken. Try it you might be surprised!
Jim

Regarding the firing order, I know that the number one is the closest to the radiator. On the distributor cap, which one is number one? and so on. I was careful to do one at a time change, but I'm rethinking everything at this point. Maybe a jokester moved my wires around!

I think I may have to get a timing light and learn how to use it.

You need to bring that piston near the radiator to TDC on the compression stroke. Once you have No1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke remove the cap and see where your rotor is pointing. You don't need a timing light to get the engine running. When you have No1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke both valves should be closed and your timing marks should be aligned. The rotor should be pointing to your No1 plug wire on the cap, then the next plug wire should go to No3 sparkplug around the cap clockwise, then No4 and then No2. Hal

2-1
4-3

Putting new plugs in it today. That will rule out plugs being fouled from fuel additive crap. I'm also going to check firing order with plug wires. Mine were not as what most people describe.

2 - 1
4 - 3

well....it was that way, but they had number 1 at the BACK of the tractor, back to front. I can't believe that is true, but I'll do the TDC check the rotor direction trick.

I believe this is somehow an ignition problem because quick start spray did not fire the engine AT ALL. Even if the carb is blocked, it should sputter a little with the spray.

#1 in front or #1 in rear, it doesn't matter on a 4-cylinder engine (as long as the rotor is pointing to the distributor cap terminal for the corresponding spark plug wire, when the cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke).

If it ran fine when you parked it, it certainly did not magically switch the #1 cylinder from front to rear. At worst, the timing is only slightly off, if any.

HOWEVER, your spark plugs are DRY. With all the cranking they should be soaking wet with gasoline. You're not getting any gas into the cylinders, and engines don't run on air.

Contrary to popular belief, you do need SOME fuel in the cylinder for starting fluid to work.

Until you take that carburetor apart and figure out what's wrong there, all you're doing is wearing out your starter.

Carb is going to be dismantled. What's the best fluid to clean it in?

My Super A did the same thing when I dug it out of the barn last weekend. I ended up pull starting it. It only took about about ten feet and she took off been good ever since. Sometimes the cylinders are a little dry.

The reason you want to be doubly sure you are in time, rotor pointing to number one when number one is at tdc compression stroke, is that when these tractors sit for a while it gives that bushing in the distributor a chance to stick to the shaft on an already sticky one that was not bothering the last time you ran it. They rust up and then pop goes the pin or teeth. Been there, done that. I am working on an M right now where dist is in mighty bad repair. Owner got another from salvage yard, I talked to salvage yard operator and told him I would take it apart and check it all out, he say, no , don't take it apart you will ruin it. Told him I have been taking them apart for 50 years and I will take it apart to check it's condition. Far as your tractor, If you follow the suggestions all have submitted you will get it running.

Carb is soaking, and it looked fine. The jets in the needle were clear as day.....sad to say I dont think the carb is the problem. Putting it back together in a bit.

I guess I'll try to pull start it next......I've been messing with the TDC cyl one thing, but I don't know how to tell where it's at in the stroke.
It's supposed to fire when? When i block the hole with my finger, I get a whoosh of air, and I watch the plug grounded to the block and it spark/woosh/spark/woosh/spark/ in time with the woosh of air, but I don't know at what point it is supposed to fire. I had trouble turning the engine by the fan blade AND checking for pressure at the plug hole.

When you feel that pressure against your thumb drop a plastic straw on top the piston then have someone hand crank the engine while you watch the straw rise until it stops. No1 piston should be at TDC on the compression stroke.

Then look to see where the rotor is pointing. It should be in the 1 o'clock range for No1 plug. Hal

OMG. pull started it after carb put back....pulled it 500 feet...backfiring thru carb....but you could see puffs coming out around the intake/exhause manifold...gas was running down the side of the block below the manifold. I'm guessing that's it! Loss of vaccum, and that explains the misfire out the carb....

I basically rebuilt the carb and everything up to the points for nothing.......


sigh...I'm sold on pull starting. I'll remember that for "next time". HA!

You probably have some plug wires crossed. You still need to bring No1 piston to TDC on the compression stroke. Then see where the rotor is pointing. Place your No1 plug wire there on the cap and to No1 plug, then connect No3 wire to cap and No3 plug. Then do 4 & 2 going cw on the cap. Then see if if will run. Hal

Nothing has changed with the timing or firing order since parking it. The only thing has changed is replacing the wires and plugs. Apparantly, the only other thing that has changed is that the intake/exhaust manifold gasket shriveled up and died. Part of the gasket actually was missing. It looked like the exhaust part, but it's hard to say. If the timing DID change, it would be because somehow the distrib gears jumped, or some such thing...like gear teeth broke or something. I will replace the manifold gasket and go from there. If it still doesn't run, then I will have to become proficient at adjusting the timing. I'm hoping I don't have to. With my luck..I will.

You should pull the valve cover and look for bent push rods. You may have some valves sticking. Hal

I got it....I had the wires messed up with all the fartin around.... But that gasket was shot.... I was suckin air in around the manifold instead of thru the carb....hence no wet plugs with gas.

It only took me a week.....Ha!

Thanks for all who posted.

Dan in PA

Fruits of my labor and stressin out over it.....yay....thanks again for all the help!

Glad you have it running. I'm surprised that it much suction at the carburetor. We used that
on cars and trucks that had mechanical fuel pumps
because you can create enough vacuum to suck fuel into the carburetor and engine for the engine to start. Once the hand was removed the engine quit. Hal