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Video of a problem that plagues me....

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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 18:18:07




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I rebuilt this tractor last year and aside from the chug-chug-chugging of smoke that I get from the oil filler tube everything is 100% AOK with this machine.
I've changed the head gasket, rings, etc got great compression....I just dont see where this is coming from?????
Check it out....the tractor is a Farmall 100.
Link
I have looked high and low for cracks in the head, etc and I don't see a thing. I have new stem seals, valves, and valve guides installed in the head. Anyone know where this is coming from???? :?

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kossuth

05-07-2008 05:58:05




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  

Patrick Martin said: (quoted from post at 18:18:07 05/05/08) I rebuilt this tractor last year and aside from the chug-chug-chugging of smoke that I get from the oil filler tube everything is 100% AOK with this machine.
I've changed the head gasket, rings, etc got great compression....I just dont see where this is coming from?????
Check it out....the tractor is a Farmall 100.
Link
I have looked high and low for cracks in the head, etc and I don't see a thing. I have new stem seals, valves, and valve guides installed in the head. Anyone know where this is coming from???? :?
I haven't seen the video being I can't look at it here at work but I'll offer this from my experience. Tractor seems to make good compression and power but has alot of blowby. I'm thinking something is outta round. Did you mic the sleeves every 45 degrees to see if it might have been outta round? What about the pistons did you do same? Not saying it is outta round but maybe this was asked before and I didn't see the reply but did you hone the sleeves? The sleeves need a rough surface to help seat them. If your sleeves are warped then honing or reringing isn't going to help. On your leakdown test did you do it with the motor warm or cold? I'd try doing one with the motor warm and the cylinders at BDC and TDC and see what happens. You shouldn't have more than 10% loss eithor way.

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Don c

05-06-2008 02:58:52




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Just my 2 cents worth, The chrome rings could be your problem, rebuilt a car engine and used them, took forever to seat in and it was run a lot, on a tractor that isn't used much they may never seat in to the point where it doesn't have the blow by.



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Steven f/AZ

05-07-2008 07:11:43




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Don c, 05-06-2008 02:58:52  

Don c said: (quoted from post at 02:58:52 05/06/08) Just my 2 cents worth, The chrome rings could be your problem, rebuilt a car engine and used them, took forever to seat in and it was run a lot, on a tractor that isn't used much they may never seat in to the point where it doesn't have the blow by.


I'm inclined to agree with this - chrome rings can be difficult to seat.

Did you hone the cylinders? A good crosshatch will help the rings to seat as well.

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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:36:43




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Look at these two videos (excuse the plow setup). Notice that there is no smoke, in fact the smoke diminishes a little as I work it.

Plenty of power, it would seem to me I'd be lacking in that department if it were blowby???

Link

Link

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Calif. Farmall

05-06-2008 13:50:35




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 20:36:43  
I like the plow, mine is just like it but it's got a disc or sod cutter in front. Came off grandpa's cub 30yrs ago (not much good in Los Angeles CA. even 30yrs ago, wouldn't cut in to all the cement down there) and I never did use it. Oh well back to the issue at hand, I did notice as he really started pulling hard no smoke out the pipe but lots out the oil fill. That tells me you are making good compression, the oil rings and valve seals are working. You just aren't getting a good seal on the top rings, enough to make compression but not enough to keep all that pressure in. Drag Race cars have a similar problem at WOT, they run the breather tube into the the header with a smog pump check valve so exhaust wont get into the engine. The exhaust actually sucks all the blow by out and burns it. If it were mine, and I was out of money which I am. I would hook up a PCV valve off a 95 dodge caravan 3.0 engine. They use a 1/8 pipe threads on the intake side and 5/16 vacuum hose nipple on the other side. Hook up a fitting off the side of the valve cover by brazing a nipple on the side and run it to the intake just above the carb. My A has a 1/8 pipe plug already there but you may have to drill a hole. That may suck enough blow by out that you don't notice it. The only other remedy you might try is non detergent oil but it's hard on the bearings. Might try it for a few weeks of work and see what happens. Could be the chrome rings, they really need a good surface to seat into. I try to only use Hastings cast iron, and even then I only have 50% success rate unless the cylinders were replaced or cut oversize and a perfect round surface. The last few times I've been bit by rings not sealing I decided a few years ago to quit doing it without boring or replacing the cylinders. Hope this helps, DAN.

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Patrick Martin

05-06-2008 17:00:20




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Calif. Farmall, 05-06-2008 13:50:35  

Calif. Farmall said: (quoted from post at 13:50:35 05/06/08) I like the plow, mine is just like it but it's got a disc or sod cutter in front. Came off grandpa's cub 30yrs ago (not much good in Los Angeles CA. even 30yrs ago, wouldn't cut in to all the cement down there) and I never did use it. Oh well back to the issue at hand, I did notice as he really started pulling hard no smoke out the pipe but lots out the oil fill. That tells me you are making good compression, the oil rings and valve seals are working. You just aren't getting a good seal on the top rings, enough to make compression but not enough to keep all that pressure in. Drag Race cars have a similar problem at WOT, they run the breather tube into the the header with a smog pump check valve so exhaust wont get into the engine. The exhaust actually sucks all the blow by out and burns it. If it were mine, and I was out of money which I am. I would hook up a PCV valve off a 95 dodge caravan 3.0 engine. They use a 1/8 pipe threads on the intake side and 5/16 vacuum hose nipple on the other side. Hook up a fitting off the side of the valve cover by brazing a nipple on the side and run it to the intake just above the carb. My A has a 1/8 pipe plug already there but you may have to drill a hole. That may suck enough blow by out that you don't notice it. The only other remedy you might try is non detergent oil but it's hard on the bearings. Might try it for a few weeks of work and see what happens. Could be the chrome rings, they really need a good surface to seat into. I try to only use Hastings cast iron, and even then I only have 50% success rate unless the cylinders were replaced or cut oversize and a perfect round surface. The last few times I've been bit by rings not sealing I decided a few years ago to quit doing it without boring or replacing the cylinders. Hope this helps, DAN.


Interesting idea! I might just try this before doing another overhaul.....heck its not like its not performing above par or giving me any trouble so I think I'll just run her as is. I have had the opportunity to try out another fully restored Farmall 100 and pulled a larger set of disks than mine with it and as far as performance mine is on par with his so I guess I'll just let it go and hope that its just the rings not seating. Otherwisre if it gives me any trouble later on I'll pop the head and change the sleeves.

The plow setup is embarassing. Thing is I didn't know it was made for this little tractor and used the drawbar flipped forward to mount. I've been fabbing up the parts for next season. Here is how it's supposed to mount. (Pics and knowledge of this thanks to GeorgeKY :D )
Link

Link

Link

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MN Scott

05-05-2008 20:15:11




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Did you do half a job and put new rings on worn pistons in worn sleeves? If you did new rings are a near perfect circle. The old sleeves and pistons are most likely not a perfect circle. My opinion, if you want a qualitity job the ring and piston, sleeve assemblys have to be replaced as a set so everything is tight.



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:30:44




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to MN Scott, 05-05-2008 20:15:11  

MN Scott said: (quoted from post at 20:15:11 05/05/08) Did you do half a job and put new rings on worn pistons in worn sleeves? If you did new rings are a near perfect circle. The old sleeves and pistons are most likely not a perfect circle. My opinion, if you want a qualitity job the ring and piston, sleeve assemblys have to be replaced as a set so everything is tight.


I did but I wouldn't really call it half a job or put it like that. A part can be worn but within tolerable specs as given in the manual and is perfectly useable.
While not fully dismissing the possibility, I do doubt it is the piston/rings. I was wondering if it might be a leaking exhaust valve guide or something and if any of you have had similar issues? Still...maybe the rings/sleeves/pistons?

This is my very first sleeved engine rebuild. Are sleeves prone to egging? :?:

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Vacherie

05-05-2008 22:02:12




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 20:30:44  
Don't let those Yankees get under your skin. They have good intentions but don't always say things in a professional way. Your 100 looks good. Give me a call.

Ken Vincent



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:00:36




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Thank y'all so much for the replies!

Now to answer some questions....

I overhauled this engine and replaced/repaired everything that was out of spec.
The rings and sleeves are the same old factory ones and I did check them for wear and proper clearances. I put a new set of chrome rings in it and spaced them properly.
Now only thing I can think of is that maybe the cylinders were excessivley worn towards the bottom because at TDC on a leakdown test it is solid.

As far as working it.....I've cut my 26 acre pasture twice in heavy grass with a Servis brand pull behind drum cutter, plowed my 1 acre garden with a 16" single once, and pulled a weighted 6' set of disks 5-6 times.

Should I work it more?
Also, since rebuild I've been running 30HD in it. Should I switch to a lighter weight to get a little more friction going?

Like I said, she has LOTS of power and is quite snappy at the throttle just like a new machine. I'm getting clean, clear exhaust and the plugs arent fouling.
What gives???? :?

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Calif. Farmall

05-05-2008 19:37:19




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
WOW!- Thats a lot of blow by. Did you have the problem before you changed the rings? Did you put each ring into the cylinder by itself and check the gap before installing them on the piston? It's possible you have the wrong rings, sleeves that are so worn or out of round that the rings won't seal. Now if your rings are correct and the cylinders checked out good you might check the compression on each cyl. and see if it's up to par. Look at each spark plug too see if one looks different or fouled. Also might try disconnecting one plug at a time too check if one cyl causes more blow by than others. It looks like a lot of pressure coming out, and my guess is if the problem wasn't there before the old rings had worn into the cyls egg shaped and the new rings may take years to seat in or never. Hope this gives you a few ideas, Dan.

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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:19:51




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Calif. Farmall, 05-05-2008 19:37:19  

Calif. Farmall said: (quoted from post at 19:37:19 05/05/08) WOW!- Thats a lot of blow by. Did you have the problem before you changed the rings? Did you put each ring into the cylinder by itself and check the gap before installing them on the piston? It's possible you have the wrong rings, sleeves that are so worn or out of round that the rings won't seal. Now if your rings are correct and the cylinders checked out good you might check the compression on each cyl. and see if it's up to par. Look at each spark plug too see if one looks different or fouled. Also might try disconnecting one plug at a time too check if one cyl causes more blow by than others. It looks like a lot of pressure coming out, and my guess is if the problem wasn't there before the old rings had worn into the cyls egg shaped and the new rings may take years to seat in or never. Hope this gives you a few ideas, Dan.


1. Yep, checked the ring end gap, cleaned the grooves till they were sparkly, installed them with proper spacing.

2. I did to a leakdown and compression test, all was perfect. I might try a BDC test though.

3. All plugs are burning clean and the exhaust is clean as you can see too.

You know I never really checked to see if it did have this problem before. I pulled this thing out of the junkyard and began at once tearing it down but it did run and I guess I should have checked to see how it ran. :?

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Rootsy

05-06-2008 05:23:09




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 20:19:51  
Proper cross hatch in a cylinder, both depth of cut and geometry have a lot to do with ring seal. Chrome faced rings are hard and take some doing to seat, this is where proper bore preparation as far as hone comes into play.

The proper way to measure a bore is with a bore gauge. 90* apart, 3 points down the axis of the bore (top, middle, bottom) for a total of 6 measurements, if you are an overachiever measure 3 points at each height for a total of 9 measurements. It is also important to mic the piston on the skirt to make sure it is not worn. Pistons are not true cylinders but are larger on the skirt.

Proper indexing of compression and oil rings on the piston are of utmost importance.

Oil vapor is almost certainly leakage by the rings.

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GordoSD

05-05-2008 19:36:34




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
We need more info on the rebuild. Complete pistons, sleeves, rings, pins etc? Looks to me like a ring end gap problem. Or oil ring upside down.

Gordo



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:13:57




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to GordoSD, 05-05-2008 19:36:34  

GordoSD said: (quoted from post at 19:36:34 05/05/08) We need more info on the rebuild. Complete pistons, sleeves, rings, pins etc? Looks to me like a ring end gap problem. Or oil ring upside down.

Gordo


Whole shebang. Only thing I didn't really fool with is the cam, tappets, and cam bearings because they "felt" right.
New rings but old pistons and sleeves because they checked within tolerances.

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rwp

05-05-2008 18:55:21




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Patrick: Yes, this is some blow by. It will take your rings a while to seat. It may be possible what Teddy is saying if you didn"t check your sleeve, rings, and clearances when you were assembling your engine.



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:10:19




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to rwp, 05-05-2008 18:55:21  

rwp said: (quoted from post at 18:55:21 05/05/08) Patrick: Yes, this is some blow by. It will take your rings a while to seat. It may be possible what Teddy is saying if you didn"t check your sleeve, rings, and clearances when you were assembling your engine.


Checked them and they were really nice, no scoring etc..... .
I know I should know better....I've rebuilt many many engines....I was in a rush with this one and after i reamed the ridge I miced it but only up top where TDC would be. They just seemed so nice. Could that be it?

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teddy52food

05-06-2008 06:32:28




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 20:10:19  
You say you reamed the ridge. If there was a ridge to ream, the sleeve is wore out. I have rerung these engines with up to ten thousands wear. Anything over that gets new sleeves. By the amount of blowby you have I would say the sleeves don't mike out OK. Also ,valves and guides will not cause blow by.



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Edpap

05-05-2008 18:48:20




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Hello Pat.
That is classic blow by and lots of it. it is possible you never got the rings set after rebuilding but I would have to say there is some ring gaps linned up or you have a broken ring. was that water mixed with the oil on the hood?
did you replace the linners?
Good luck Ed



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 20:04:08




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Edpap, 05-05-2008 18:48:20  

Edpap said: (quoted from post at 18:48:20 05/05/08) Hello Pat.

That is classic blow by and lots of it. it is possible you never got the rings set after rebuilding but I would have to say there is some ring gaps linned up or you have a broken ring. was that water mixed with the oil on the hood?

did you replace the linners?

Good luck Ed
abcrepairparts



It had just rained today and you are seeing rainwater on top of some oil leakage. Never replaced the liners as they checked within specs with a micrometer. I didn't check the bottom near the skirts however like I should have. They just seemed too nice up top and i overlooked it.

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rwp

05-05-2008 18:46:53




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Patrick: Some of the things that cause this after
an overhaul are oil thickness and plugged up filter on your oil filter cap. One of the reasons you are seeing this is because your pistons are building up compression when they are on their way down. The crankcase needs to be ventilated. When you get the proper ventilation, your oil will not be forced out of the oil cap. I would be worrying more about pressure being built up in the crankcase and creating seal leaks. So don"t really try to block off this pressure. Try a bigger vent on your oil filter. Get the kind that traps the oil and only releases the air pressure.

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teddy52food

05-05-2008 18:36:45




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
That is blow by. The rings are not sealing. How bad were the sleeves wore when you put the rings in? Was the top groove in the piston checked for wear? How much clearance between the piston and sleeve?



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garytomaszewski

05-05-2008 18:59:04




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to teddy52food, 05-05-2008 18:36:45  
I agree-blowby only thing I'll add is did you work it any to seat the rings or just putt around ?



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 18:19:48




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
Link



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Patrick Martin

05-05-2008 18:18:51




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 Re: Video of a problem that plagues me.... in reply to Patrick Martin, 05-05-2008 18:18:07  
OOPS! Here is the link activated! :D
>Link



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