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My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low?

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charles todd

04-08-2008 12:48:08




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I put a Vickers hydraulic gauge on a Pioneer male qiuck-connect coupling and placed it in all four remotes. I got 1100-psi at low idle and 1400-psi at high idle. The relief valve would squeal at these psi's at these RPMS... If the relief is 1600-psi, these pump readings are low, shouldn't I get 1600-psi. Would a 45 year old pump be failing, has over 12,000 hours. What about the relief, can I put a 1800-psi or 2000-psi Industrial tractor relief in... I would like to go to a 17-gpm pump if replacement is wise, besides, I can get a 17-gpm cheaper than a 12-gpm. Any drawbacks to the 17-gpm?

Thanks,

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bc

04-09-2008 07:33:45




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
Just for your info, my IH 3000 loader is rated at 3000# at full lift height with a 17 gpm pump at the max of 2000 psi. The cylinders are 2 1/2" bore by a little over 22" stroke.



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bc

04-08-2008 18:03:38




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
Charles, Not sure what your model is but it sounds similar to the hydraulics in my 2606. The relief valve is under the seat under the cover of the draft control housing on the right front corner as you are sitting. I priced one at $234 from cih. Mine had a piece of metal holding the ball open. It is technically adjustable but on the top inside there are 2 machine pressed staked pockets in the thread and nut. You would need to clean up the threads and the nut with some fine tools to be able to screw it in a little at a time to increase the psi. The relief valve is open topped so any fluid coming out comes straight up against the cover. There is pipe plug on the left front inside the housing (or in the back if you have the draft control rock shaft inside) that you can remove to lower the level and clean out the sludge in the bottom. You can screw out the relief valve, run it and watch the flow of fluid. The relief valve for the power steering inputs just to the left of where the main psi valve screws in.

I'm not sure raising the psi will help that much but maybe some. As a pump wears out it not only produces less volume but it also isn't as tight so you also have less pressure. The less volume = less psi flowing down the same size pipe(basic law of physics).

I think you still may have a relief valve and/or check ball problem with the flow divider and the pilot valve attached to it if you are also having some steering problems.

Mine has a case 33 backhoe & a IH 3000 loader so it has the two largest pumps you can get, the 17 and the 9. From what I see in the parts manuals, the larger pumps are interchangeable without having to put in bigger lines or valves, etc. Mine also uses the standard hyd filter and not the high capacity filter which is about 1 1/4" thicker. A high cap filter would not fit into the housing. New tractors and even some bobcats have fairly high gpm pumps. I don't see any drawbacks with a 17gpm pump since the system was designed to use them.

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the tractor vet

04-08-2008 17:30:43




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
Well i'll throw in my two cents here , Don't have a problem with the 17 gal. pump and don't have a problem with going to a 2000 lbs. relief . BUT I AM TELLEN YA YOU ARE PUSHEN YOUR LUCK GOING ANY HIGHER . . IF ya want the lifting capacity of a 992 cat then get a 992 As i am telling ya now that the ft end will not stand that much . Ya want something to lift 3000lbs then get a 06 -66 seires and i am not talken a 656 or 666.

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Steven f/AZ

04-08-2008 18:06:51




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to the tractor vet, 04-08-2008 17:30:43  

the tractor vet said: (quoted from post at 17:30:43 04/08/08)Ya want something to lift 3000lbs then get a 06 -66 seires and i am not talken a 656 or 666.


Well, we generally lifted bales that weigh around 1200 lbs max with our 1256... But anyway, Dad broke the front end a couple of times loading manure - didn't break after bracing, though:

third party image

Now, if you want to get serious about lifting 3000 lbs get one of these:

Link

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the tractor vet

04-08-2008 19:54:34




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to Steven f/AZ, 04-08-2008 18:06:51  
Myself and a good friend that was a machinery jockey we both ran 706 gassers fro loading equipment and unloading i set both tractors up mine had a 2000 seires loader and my buddy's had a Do All both had the 2100 pressure relief in them and i could just lift a 15 foot brillion culamulcher my buddys could do it a little better as his had larger cylinders on the lift Now we never broke the tubes but did break the spindles several times. and sheared the pins while tryen to move with one hanging off the end of the 6 foot boom pole. . They has enough lifting power to lift the whole back end of a farmall M with a 319 picker mounted to it after it snapped the axle off in the field . Was to soft to use a jack while we changed out the axle . That job did not fall under OHSO standards.

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mkirsch

04-09-2008 05:16:58




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to the tractor vet, 04-08-2008 19:54:34  
Charles,

If the relief valve is tripping at 1100PSI, and it's supposed to trip at 1600PSI, then it's the relief valve...

Don't waste several hundred dollars putting a pump in "just for the heck of it" and wind up with the same problems...



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the tractor vet

04-09-2008 06:12:02




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to mkirsch, 04-09-2008 05:16:58  
How do you know it is the relief ??? did ya run all the test while it was hooked up to a flow rater and at proper operating temp. Did you plumb in the flow rater to by pass the system relief ??? Ya can not find the problem with just a gauge and by checking thru the remotes.



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charles todd

04-08-2008 16:44:54




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to gene bender, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  

TractormanNC said: (quoted from post at 22:39:45 04/08/08) OK guys Here it is. The 656 and 504 use the same 1600 psi relief valve. There is a 2000 psi relief valve for the 656 listed under CIH PN 388 208 R93 so I would assume it would fit the 504. Hold on when you price it!!!.

I have been told that Hy Capacity has a 2300 psi valve as PN HH396729 and a 2500 psi valve as PN HH543976. Much less than CIH. Hope this helps.

By the way, the relief valve is almost hidden on the lower side of the transfer block that the remote valves bolt to.


I thought it was under the cover, under the seat, in the front left (facing rear)... Bout a big around as a quarter and ?? inches long.

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TractormanNC

04-08-2008 17:30:19




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 16:44:54  
The one under the cover under the seat is for the hitch pump. Look under the quadrant shafts from the rear and you will see about a 1 1/8 hex. Scrape the crud off the head and there will be a part # and psi rating



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TractormanNC

04-08-2008 14:39:45




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
OK guys Here it is. The 656 and 504 use the same 1600 psi relief valve. There is a 2000 psi relief valve for the 656 listed under CIH PN 388 208 R93 so I would assume it would fit the 504. Hold on when you price it!!!.

I have been told that Hy Capacity has a 2300 psi valve as PN HH396729 and a 2500 psi valve as PN HH543976. Much less than CIH. Hope this helps.

By the way, the relief valve is almost hidden on the lower side of the transfer block that the remote valves bolt to.

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charles todd

04-08-2008 14:21:33




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
I topped off the system when I put the loader on (about 5 gallons). I have rebuilt the two remote valves completely and I notice a HUGE improvement. But now I have tight valves, no leaks, and limited lift capacity. This loader can lift 2900-lbs at the bucket pins with 1800-psi. I had the bucket curled and not far from the pins, I had difficulty lifting 1000-1200-lbs. Right now, it would probably struggle to lift a 5x5 bale. It has got to be the relief or the pump. I am going to put in a new 17-gpm pump soon for the hell of it, more flow. Can I also put in the 7.5-gpm lift pump or is this overkill?

My question is, what part number is the higher psi relief under? What tractor used the high psi relief? I plan to change that too... Responsibility is required though to have more flow and psi... Could quote, "overload the mule".

Charles

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karl f

04-08-2008 14:03:29




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
just thinking out loud to help others following your progress:

did you top off the hydraulic system reservoir after installing the loader and cycling it and the bucket a few times? there is a lot of oil required to fill the space of the hoses and empty cylinders. even on a double acting cylinder, as they are full of air when new.

low oil could give low pressure and noises and loss of powersteering.

karl f

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Steven f/AZ

04-08-2008 13:49:16




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
I disagree with old, higher GPM is often needed for loader operation as the cylinders are big and require a lot of oil. Danger of flipping tractor? Use some brains and realize that the levers can be moved part way - you don't have to shove them back and forth and pretend it's all or nothing like a light switch.

I can't think of ANY downside to higher GPM.



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karl f

04-08-2008 14:10:36




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to Steven f/AZ, 04-08-2008 13:49:16  

Steven f/AZ said: (quoted from post at 13:49:16 04/08/08) I disagree with old, .


i disagree with you both, but agree with you both :)
I think the goal is CONTROL. without the right check valves or control valves with the ability to feather all that GPM you will have jerky operation which could be deadly. I agree that you want FAST in your cycling times but when it comes to being delicate with a full bucket of dirt, control and slow are more important at that moment than speed.

i think you can see how i'm saying you both are right...

karl f

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Steven f/AZ

04-08-2008 15:09:16




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to karl f, 04-08-2008 14:10:36  

karl f said: (quoted from post at 14:10:36 04/08/08)i think you can see how i'm saying you both are right...

karl f


Yep, I see it. I've always had good control valves on the loaders I've run, so GPM was important because I hate sitting and waiting for the loader to go up...

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old

04-08-2008 13:17:07




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  
Yes you should be able to use a different or reset your relief valve. As far as GPM it depends on what your going to use it on. If its for a loader the higher GPM can cause big problems that would make it unsafe to use and flip your tractor



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NawlensGator

04-08-2008 13:07:29




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 Re: My Findings on Actual Hydraulic Output PSI, Maybe Low? in reply to charles todd, 04-08-2008 12:48:08  

Good question Todd. I would also like to know. I would like 2000 to 2500 psi and higher flow. What are the upgrade possibilities?



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