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M/SM/400/450 cam question

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Charles E. McNe

03-01-2008 13:12:06

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I have often read on this site about the M cams and the 450 cams. Have read in the past that IH improved the intake profile on the later cams. I pulled out my service manual for the M and my buddy pulled out his service manual for the 400/450. Turns out the specs were listed "THE SAME!" I don't see in the specs. where the differance is. Kind of fell bad because I have been telling people to get the replacement cam thinking it would help, but other then the number on the cam the profiles listed in the 2 IH manuals are the same. Does anybody have any info. to this?
Thanks,
Charles

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D Slater

03-01-2008 19:54:42

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to Charles E. McNelly, 03-01-2008 13:12:06

Forgot to ask does your M manual have a print date on it.

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Charles E. McNelly

03-02-2008 08:35:32

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to D Slater, 03-01-2008 19:54:42

Hi Dave, My M manual is a reprint of CHS-87, dated 7-14-47

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D Slater

03-01-2008 18:36:30

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to Charles E. McNelly, 03-01-2008 13:12:06

Since M and super series are my favorate size farmalls I always compare parts from working on them and always have questions. After half a lifetime or more a lot don't have all the original parts. One thing that leads to confusion is when IH made a new part that would fit a older model, most times the new part would end up being the replacement part for earlier models. Like camshafts if you look at the later partsbooks printed after changes a M through 450 may show the same part #, but that may not be the same part # as original part to some of the tractors. The following is some information I found over several years. IH service bulletin no S-7810 dated 2-15-55. Camshaft # 48196-D is revised in that the intake and exhaust cams have been changed to permit revised valve timing and longer period of valve opening. Reason to accommodate new C-264 engines for 400 series tractors. New part # is 48196-DA.
Previous cam 48196-D was used in M, SM and SMTA tractors. 48196-DA was used on farmall 400 C-264 and farmall 450 C281 from engine # 501 to 9860.
Next IH bulletin # S-9274 date 10-17-57 Camshafts for production or service C-152, C-164, C-169, C175, C-248, C-264 and C-281 are revised in that camshaft threads have been changed to left hand with new nut included. Start in production tractor F-450 serial # 12652 engine # 9861. (That would be in August of 57) New cam # is 48196 DB, on orders for previous camshafts furnish 48196 DBX camshaft assembly with nut.( notice the threads was only change in cams from 400 and early 450 to later 450) Part numbers for cams are part book numbers and camshafts may and will have a different # on them if readable. Think IH got some cams from outside vendors also that may be # different. One last bit of info, Blue Ribbon Service form GSS-1170, title C-264 engine SMTA and SW6TA, date 10-10-55. In the section on camshaft. Note: the use of camshaft 45955 DA (400 tractor series camshaft) replacing the production camshaft will provide increased engine power due to revised valve timing. 45955-DA is the acttual # found on IH cams and is the same as 48196-DA in parts book.

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Charles E. McNelly

03-02-2008 08:44:31

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to D Slater, 03-01-2008 18:36:30

Hi Dave, What made me wonder was the fact that both the M manual and 450 manual showed the lift the same and the duration of the valves the same.
I thought there would be a differance in valve timing on the intake side from what all has said.
Thanks,
Charles

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james rumph

03-02-2008 04:35:38

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to D Slater, 03-01-2008 18:36:30

"Wow" good info i would like to sit down and read all that to learn more. How on earth did you come accross all that ?

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kossuth

03-01-2008 16:42:48

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to Janicholson, 03-01-2008 13:12:06

It isn't that easy as far as comparing lift only. There are alot of things that go into cam design that I don't understand but things like duration make a huge difference. Varying the LSA of a cam can greatly change the power characteristics of a motor. Not to mention if the cam has a few degrees of advance or retard ground into it it changes things also. International may not have increased the lift of a cam because eithor A they didn't want to change things up because they were worried about piston to valve clearance B the factory valve guides won't allow anymore lift C the head doesn't flow well at the increased lift. I've done alittle hotrodding and I'll tell you that with just my limited experience there is a bunch more to a cam than just the lift.

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Steven f/AZ

03-01-2008 15:41:24

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to Charles E. McNelly, 03-01-2008 13:12:06

Which specs are you looking at? Lift? Duration?

I believe the lift may have remained the same for all, but the duration (how long the valve is open) was longer on the later models...

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Charles E. McNelly

03-01-2008 18:02:23

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to Steven f/AZ, 03-01-2008 15:41:24

The lift and duration are the same in both manuals. This is why I asked the question, just doesn't make much sense if the lift is the same as well as the time they open and close. I hope this makes more sense.
Thanks,
Charles

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james rumph

03-01-2008 14:10:45

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to Charles E. McNelly, 03-01-2008 13:12:06

I have always been told to leave the stock cam in my Super M for "stock" class pulling.

I run a tractor dyno service and that stock cam runs out around 1900 rpm. After that the torque #s fall off fast, so rpm doesn't help.

We had mine at 72hp at 1710 rpm with 198 ft lbs torqe.

With a heavy governor spring it pulled 2700 rpm at 90 hp but 155 ft lbs torqe.

We have since brought the rpm done to with in the 10% rule 1710 again and it's making a few more hp with the torqe at 210.

This motor has 150 psi cylinder presure.

I do have the 450 L.P intake on it with a 450 gas head.

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ChadS

03-02-2008 05:04:17

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to james rumph, 03-01-2008 14:10:45

click the link and remove your glasses,,,, should be able to see it with out em,,,,, LOL!! Sorry for such big pictures,,,, but here is the cam sheets on the M and SM,,, or C-264,,, rusty and non rusty cam,,, the "bigger" cam is the late model cam. both had right hand threads on the nut,,,,

Link

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El Toro

03-02-2008 05:41:11

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to ChadS, 03-02-2008 05:04:17

Her's a reduced size version. Hal

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Charles E. McNelly

03-02-2008 09:33:50

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Re: M/SM/400/450 cam question in reply to El Toro, 03-02-2008 05:41:11

Thanks all for the input guys. The info. in the manuals isn't right apparently. Thanks Chad for sharing the chart, Thanks Hal for making it easy to read and Thanks also to Dave for all his help answering my questions on the specs concering my tractors. When it comes to knowing and or finding the info, he's the man!
Thanks again to all,
Charles

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