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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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super a...113 or 123 engine

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pork

02-28-2008 12:42:56




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im gettting ready to order parts for paps super a. the only cid listed in my a&i catalog for super a is the 123. the listing for 113 engine only says "a" not super a. here are my #'s. serial-292217. block casting-251069-R1. number stamped into block near front just below head gasket-293331. can any one tell me the cubic inch?




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ddg

02-28-2008 19:26:02




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to pork, 02-28-2008 12:42:56  
I put the bigger set in my 48 SA, and they came with aluminum step top pistons instead of the old 4 ring cast iron flat tops. Runs great, plenty of power, no blue smoke now.



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Chris Hable

02-28-2008 15:43:13




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to pork, 02-28-2008 12:42:56  
This interesting. So I assume you could put the 3.125 inch sleeves into a B and make something like a Super B. But I think the carburators are different on the Supers. Could you put a Super A carborator onto an regular A or B?



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gene bender

02-28-2008 16:01:05




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to Chris Hable, 02-28-2008 15:43:13  
There is no need to change carbs the original one will work just fine.



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Chris Hable

02-29-2008 07:06:24




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to gene bender, 02-28-2008 16:01:05  
I thought the Super A and Super C got their increased power through not only the increased displacement but also through a different carburator that allowed the engine to run at higher RPM. I'm not sure that actually results in more power but I'm pretty sure one of the features is that they have a different carburator and that they run at higher RPM.



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gene bender

02-29-2008 10:46:02




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to Chris Hable, 02-29-2008 07:06:24  
10CUIN doesent need any more gas they sped the motor up a bunch of rpms and you could take a B with the larger bore and speed it up and get the same horses. I have some friends that have ran dynos and they got more hp by just the rpms. Now if you want more bore the block to take the 3 1/4 sleeve and get a 340 head and 2200 rpms then you are talking. I have a friend who did that and gets 42 on the dyno he hasnt done the carb jets yet but is winning his clas but he is an experienced puller and has wts and some other tricks and wins his class hasnt needed to go with the next set of drilling out the jets so far plugs are burning great. Just get the kit they are avail for 280 this would be 3 1/8 hi-dome. Take the crank and get it checked probbably needs grinding. You wont need to go to 12v either just get things in shape.

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Hugh MacKay

02-28-2008 13:58:32




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to pork, 02-28-2008 12:42:56  
Pork: With those serial numbers and the block part number, it would have come from the factory 3" bore and as 113 cubic inches. You can install 3-1/8" bore sleeves and pistons giving you 123 cubic inches, but it will not take 3-1/4" bore. You need block part number 354898 for 3-1/4" bore. The blocks changed at tractor serial number 310300.



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P and R Pete

02-28-2008 17:01:38




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-28-2008 13:58:32  
Hugh, I bought a TISCO sleeve+piston kit from this website for my '49 Super-A. I specifically asked about what they meant by "overbore". The dude assured me that the block did not need to be bored, but rather that metallurgy being improved over that in existence in 1949, the new sleeves were actually thinner than the originals.

Call me a fool, but I took that as 'gospel'. If he's right, I'll have a 3 1/8" bore in my formerly 113 engine, yielding 123 cubes. I just got my block back today from getting the 'hot-tank' treatment, and it's still sitting in the back of my car all bagged up. I'll be checking if my new sleeves fit in the morning.

If they don't, I'm going to be a little sore, and I'm not sure if I'm going to have to be sore at the salesman or me.

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Hugh MacKay

02-29-2008 16:27:21




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to P and R Pete, 02-28-2008 17:01:38  
Pete: Overbore in this case indicates your getting 3-1/8" piston versus the 3" factory original. To fit on the same block the sleeve has to be thinner. Your 49 Super A should have block part number 251069, probably R1 or R2, and both 3" and 3-1/8" kits were available.

As you get into the newer Super As after serial number 310300 and block part number 354898 R1 it gets a bit confusing as there are 3", 3-1/8" and 3-1/4" bore kits for that one, but they all must be specific to that block.

The sleeves that fit block number 251069 will not fit block 354898 or vice versa, the sleeve outside diameter is different. Then one must take into consideration the number of 251069 blocks that have been bored to 354898 specs. How many have ever been done I don't know, I suspect not as many as some might think. It would be cheaper to buy a large bore block, than have the boring done. But who knows why, some folks do funny things. I suspect the folks that have bored these blocks have the know how and the equipment to do it themselves, you start paying for that know how and equipment, it becomes a whole new ball game.

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El Toro

02-29-2008 04:31:50




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to P and R Pete, 02-28-2008 17:01:38  
I used one those overbore kits in a Farmall A back in 1976 and no machining is required. The sleeves are thinner. Hal



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pork

02-28-2008 13:32:29




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to pork, 02-28-2008 12:42:56  
thanks for the info. ill measure before i order anything.



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El Toro

02-28-2008 13:15:25




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to pork, 02-28-2008 12:42:56  
You can get sleeve kits off the Farmall forum for your tractor. I think your engine is the C113cid engine. You need to measure the diameter of the old sleeves and the length. I think your sleeves should measure 3 5/16" at the seal end and be 6 7/8" long. Hal
PS: You can use an overbore kit to raise the cid to 123.



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NawlensGator

02-28-2008 12:59:54




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to pork, 02-28-2008 12:42:56  

tractor data dot com lists only the 113 ci engine with bore & stoke of 3 x 4 inches for the super A. The 140 had 123 ci with a 3.125 x 4 inch (bore and stroke).

I would get the bigger id sleeves at 3.125" id if they will fit the cylinder bore (which I think they will) and make it 123 ci if it were me.

Others will chime in on the feasibility of this and what, if any, other changes would be needed. Now's the time.

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HENRY E NC

02-28-2008 13:47:25




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 Re: super a...113 or 123 engine in reply to NawlensGator, 02-28-2008 12:59:54  
My books says a 1950 Super A and it is a 113. Super A-1's had 123 engines along with super C's later on. If I were redoing it I would definitely put the oversize pistons and s;eeves in it. Try getting them from this Site YT or ask Rusty Farmall so if not right you can return them. Henry



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