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504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you...

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Charles Todd

02-09-2008 21:51:32

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I had a post earlier about adding hydraulic capacity. Karl F, stated there was a picture of a really long fan spacer that looked like a hydraulic pump might clear the radiator. Well, it just so happens to be mine! That is a custom billet aluminum part I machined to replace the cast aluminum? part that broke a few years ago. What do the viewers think, can a hydraulic pump dedicated to a loader fit here? 15-15 gpm. The crank pulley has some kind of one-direction keyed ears of sorts. I can post a pic if nessecary. Almost like an attachment for a hand crank or front drive.

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karl f

02-10-2008 12:46:18

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Re: 504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you... in reply to Zach Bouchard, 02-09-2008 21:51:32

Sometimes, there's a blank spot either in the timing cover or near the camshaft where a gear drive pump would mount in a different application of your engine. doesn't look like the case for you though, although i decided to share it in case you or others could use that tip for a different application in the future.

karl f

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Steven f/AZ

02-10-2008 12:40:27

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Re: 504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you... in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 02-09-2008 21:51:32

Charles Todd said: (quoted from post at 11:11:25 02/10/08) Next move is that front axle. Some say its a Speeco and some say Schwartz, but the wishbone is not attached to the subframe. Thanks again.

I would definitaly say you have a Schwartz... mine is the Speeco unit and has several differences from the Schwartz, which I detailed in the other thread.

Just build some braces out of decent size tubing to brace the axle back to the subframe... my relatives have an M that has added frames all the way back around the rear axle so it's beefed up for loader duty. It all depends on what you want to do with your loader, I've never hurt a loader with hay bales... but when you start pushing snow or loading manure it can get tough on them.

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karl f

02-10-2008 11:59:54

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Re: 504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you... in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 02-09-2008 21:51:32

Steven f/AZ said: (quoted from post at 10:03:04 02/10/08) Just remember if you are going to drive something off the front pulley on the crankshaft that the only thing driving it is a couple of half-moon keys. I've had a couple of A's apart that had ruined the keyway in the pulley when the nut came loose and it looks like the keys aren't really strong enough to supply a ton of horsepower.

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the fords with the front drive pumps also have a woodruff key driving the crank pulley. lil tractors like an 8n all the way to 60 hp models. many have been used hard for 40+ years that way based on testimonials from the ford guys. i also think think that there is some type of shear safety device used in the pump shaft coupling. unfortunately i do not own or have access to one, but the guys on the ford board will have lots more info for you :) also, you are not going to use a pump that requires 50% or 100% of the power out of the engine. on that note, the road/ditch mowers you see mounted to regular ag tractor models (deere, kubota, cih/cnh) often drive the pump off the crank in front, and those pumps will take up to all the available hp out of the engine.
BUT steven's point helped me realize that possibly engine manufacturers on the applications i've mentioned designed their pulleys and cranks to also be pto duty from the start, unlike an A or H, etc where it was designed to just spin a couple light accesories. look into other applications of your engine, and at how beefy the pulley on yours is. it might have some beef to it and holes tapped in it already, or it may look like if you dropped it it would shatter.
karl f

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Steven f/AZ

02-10-2008 09:03:04

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Re: 504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you... in reply to Charles Todd, 02-09-2008 21:51:32

Just remember if you are going to drive something off the front pulley on the crankshaft that the only thing driving it is a couple of half-moon keys. I've had a couple of A's apart that had ruined the keyway in the pulley when the nut came loose and it looks like the keys aren't really strong enough to supply a ton of horsepower.

I have my H set up with an extra pulley up front and belt drive live hydraulics - I attached the pulley with a roll pin through the crankshaft where the hand crank usually engages. I'm only taking about six to eight horsepower from it through a B-section belt so I'm hoping it won't break the pin or the end off the crankshaft!

I'm still for a PTO drive pump, even though it won't be live it will be 99% bulletproof as far as reliability/breakage is concerned.

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karl f

02-09-2008 22:41:57

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Re: 504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you... in reply to Charles Todd, 02-09-2008 21:51:32

the clearance you need is between the crank and the front steering/radiator support. i tried to attatch image with arrow and some coloring. measure all available space you have LxWxH. you should have no problems with hoses, it will be a pump and rigging a good support for it that might be a challenge--it needs to be fairly centered to the crank. the ford setup is nice there's a good hollow space where the IH is solid. there are enough makes of pumps out there that one might work for you after all. then you need to add a reservoir to the loader frame or on the tractor somewhere. that would be the least complicated way to supply oil to the loader. make sure if the loader is disconnected you hook the pump hoses in a loop so it doesn't build pressure or run dry, which means the engine needs to be off for that step.

glad to start a brainstorm!
karl f

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Charles Todd

02-10-2008 10:11:25

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Re: 504 Hydraulics (picture) Karl F, this is for you... in reply to karl f, 02-09-2008 22:41:57

Thank you for the brain food. I am working on this project one day at a time and time is usually hard to find. I have had a light switch for this tractor along with brake rod boots for months, on my workbench. I have made all of my hoses for using the rear remotes for now. When all of my loader parts arrive, I will see how that works. Belt drive seems to be number 2 choice, place some "tees" in the lines and when I unhook from the loader, flip the ball valve, closed loop. I will post the pics when I get the loader installed. Next move is that front axle. Some say its a Speeco and some say Schwartz, but the wishbone is not attached to the subframe. Thanks again.

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