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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it

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Stones Throw Fa

01-17-2008 05:45:58




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Hi All,

Quick recap. (from a inquiry a week or two ago) I have a Super A with a Pesco pump. The pump and hydraulics were operating fine. I found the pump seal to be leaking and replaced the seal. Other than the leaky seal the pump looks great. I reinstalled the pump and since doing so have not been able to operate the hydraulics. I really appreciate all the suggestions on pump priming and yet still don"t seem to be having much luck. I"ve had the pump apart again and rebuilt to check for "goofiness" and have gone through the same processes to no avail. If I crack the manifold lines it appears there is fluid getting to the pump.

I either have no hydraulics what so ever. Or on two occasions if the tractor has sat for a night or so since adding fluid-etc. I can come out in the morning and will have VERY SLOW movement of the hydraulic arms. If I put any resistance on them theres no pressure. Each time I"ve done this I"ve then decided to open the filler plug to try bleeding air as recommended and as soon as I"ve done so I have no hydraulic movement and don"t seem to get it back.(even after putting the plug back in)

I"ve read up on the hydraulic trouble shooting. I don"t have a Schrader Gage to confirm pressures but it wouldn"t seem to matter. The two areas that address "will not lift load" or "slow movement" both point to either; bad pump, regulator/safety valves stuck, weak/broken safety valves, excessive safety valve clearance, orifice plug opening to large.

As I mentioned before other than the leaky seal everything worked fine before. I"m assuming / hoping that a simultaneous "new problem" didn"t spontaneously arise ie. regulator/safety valve/orifice stuff...but don"t have or know of any way to confirm this?!

If the pump is not getting primed still I"m pretty stumped.

If the pump is now not functioning than I"m left with buying a new one, but am concerned that I could be replacing a functional pump and will still have no hydraulics.

Just trolling for thoughts! The tractor doesn"t have much to say when we"re in the garage together.

Any other trouble shooting, valve checking, pump checking, ideas.....

Has anyone ever had safety valve/etc issues? Any thoughts on opening up the Hydraulic Cyclinder and Valves Unit?? It seems like quite a job potentially...

We"ll keep plugging! I really appreciate everyones ideas...

Best,

Brian

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Janicholson

01-17-2008 13:34:26




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 05:45:58  
Sense taking the pump off is not a difficult chore, I'll suggest pulling it and submerging it in a container of Hydraulic oil. Turning it back and forth while submerged, will get all the air out of it. Now try holding a thumb over the pressure port, while turning the input gear. Even a really worn out pump will produce modest pressure this way. You should be able to feel the rotation of the pump gears as they move fluid. If there is none, the top pumping gear may be free on the shaft. If it is, it will not pump. There may be a way to pin the gear, or have it machined for a drive key. I have seen this happen, and it is rare but difficult to find. Sticking a wooden stick down the port and turning the drive gear by hand will also point to this problem. Do not use the engine to rotate the pump with a stick in it! JimN

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Daniel H.

01-17-2008 11:09:33




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 05:45:58  
It has been along time since I had mine apart, but is it possible to install the drive gear "backward" so that the teeth are to far "back" to mesh with the timing gears in the tractor? Just grasping at straws here., since it worked before.

Daniel



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Gene-AL

01-17-2008 09:18:16




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 05:45:58  
Brian,
I re-sealed the hydraulic pump on my SA a long time ago, but I just don't remember if the pump drive gear is locked to the external pump shaft with a woodruff key & keyway. If so, is there a chance that your key is missing allowing the gear to slip on the shaft under pressure?



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Stones Throw Farm

01-17-2008 10:08:52




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Gene-AL, 01-17-2008 09:18:16  
Indeed there is a woodruff key. Its locked in solid. But in that same vein I spoke with a guy that had the nut that holds on the drive gear come off and end up in the fly wheel housing...or crankcase...or somewhere I'm not sure exactly where he found it but talk about a nightmare over a tiny nut. I suppose a real good bend in that lockwasher is order : - )



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Randy in NE

01-17-2008 08:01:51




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 05:45:58  
Are you sure that the pump is actually turning? Since you have had the pump off a couple of times already you might want to remove the steel hydraulic lines. Then hook up some clear plastic tubing to the inlet and outlet of the pump. Fill the tubing with hyraulic fluid, put the ends of the tubing in a bucket of hydraulic fluid and then turn the tractor over with the switch off so it doesn't start. See if the pump is actully pumping.

If the bypass valve inside the touch control unit is stuck then it will never allow the pump to build up pressure. When you move the touch control levers the unit detects that the rockshafts are not at the desired position. Once the rockshafts reach the desired postion an internal bypass valve opens and then just recirculates the fluid without building up much pressure. If the bypass valve isn't closing then you will never build up any pressure to move the rockshafts.

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Stones Throw Farm

01-17-2008 08:24:03




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Randy in NE, 01-17-2008 08:01:51  
I'll check the pump like you mentioned. It would seem it would be turning. The flywheel turns and independantly if I put oil in the pump and turn the gear it moves the oil.

Is there any reason to believe that the bypass valve would have become stuck by pulling the pump and changing the fluids?

Any insights on pulling the cylinder head and checking out the valves?



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El Toro

01-17-2008 10:38:58




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 08:24:03  
I think that pump is driven off the timing gear train and something may have sheared there. I was thinking about that woodruff key #10, but you've already checked that. Is the oil level ok? Hal



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Stones Throw Farm

01-17-2008 10:14:38




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 08:24:03  
So I tried the hoses out and the pump didn't want to move oil. I tried filling the pump with oil and putting my fingers over the feeder line and return. There was no pressure at all. If I released the return line it oozed the oil but it didn't seem to be getting pushed.

Its beginning to look like its the pump after all. Who knows inspite of looking pretty good those tolerances are awfully small. I was just commiserating with my neighbor that I can't believe its the pump it looks fine and he mentioned he'd show me 3 or 4 old pumps in the barn that look fine but darned if any of them work...

Thanks for the suggestions!

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Janicholson

01-17-2008 06:08:33




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to Stones Throw Farm, 01-17-2008 05:45:58  
I it were me, I would take the steel lines off and drill a 1/4 inch hole in the top side of each one. I would then weld a 1/8" pipe coupling cut in half to each hole so I could plug them up. This would allow me to pump the line full of oil with no uncertainty. It would also allow bleeding of the pressure line, and testing of pressures. Another possible solution is to put the remote access block between the resivoir unit and the lines. This would also give access to the fluids. JimN

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mkirsch

01-17-2008 05:55:19




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to John M, 01-17-2008 05:45:58  
Have you tried pressurizing through the fill plug with some compressed air? Maybe 20PSI or so to give the oil a push down to the pump?

Oil pumps are very inefficient at pumping air, especially if they're trying to push oil above the air.



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Stones Throw Farm

01-17-2008 07:11:51




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 Re: Super A Hydraulics - Still working on it in reply to mkirsch, 01-17-2008 05:55:19  
Indeed I've tried pressure on the filler hole and parking the tractor in a ditch. I've prefilled the pump with oil.(not to say that doesn't ooze back into the lines prior to filling. I do think the lines are filling. I've crack the bolts a bit while running and it starts seeping pretty good.



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