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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Ignition: 6v to 12V

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L.C.Gray

12-31-2007 16:13:28




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I'm getting close to start up on the new engine in my 47 I-4 Road Roller Conversion. What little wiring was there was totally weathered away so I'll be rewiring it from scratch. I'm going to run it on 12 volts negative ground using the original starter. I plan to try to replace the original 6V generator with a similar 12V later. I also have replaced the H4 magneto with a IH distributor, drive and coil setup. Will the distributor, namely the condensor, and the coil handle 12 volts, or will they have to be upgraded?

Part of me wants to keep it 6v, but 12v is just easier in this day and age.

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justin14054

01-01-2008 07:40:54




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to L.C.Gray, 12-31-2007 16:13:28  
I have no problem with any 6volt systems.The key is large battery cables (Thickness).
As for conversion you can get a resistor at TCS for $5 .Run 12v battery and drop across resistor to distributer
-As for other comments 12 volt verse 6volt coil= I learned the hard way on a 8n.Bought new front mount 12 coil ran 12 volt to it and smokesd it(Split in 1/2) needed a resistor in line even though it is 12 volt coil
Just my $.02 worth
justin

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Fancy Farm

01-01-2008 06:54:40




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to L.C.Gray, 12-31-2007 16:13:28  
Go to NAPA and get a 12V internally resisted coil and put it on and don't worry about voltage to distributor. You can get the coil for less than $20.



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Alan Chalou

01-01-2008 04:37:37




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to L.C.Gray, 12-31-2007 16:13:28  
L.C. have you considered using an 8 volt battery? I did this with My H and I use it in the winter plowing snow and it starts like My 12 volt Super M. The battery is the same size as the 6 volt, fits in the same battery box and you don"t have to change a thing. If you do this, the first time you use your lights, you"ll notice that there as bright as a 12 volt system. and it will turn over like a 12 volt system.

Alan

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Alan Chalou

01-01-2008 04:43:21




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to Alan Chalou, 01-01-2008 04:37:37  
L.C.
I also wanted to say that, if you do use an 8 volt battery the most important thing to remember is make sure your battery cables are of a heavy gauge, I'm not sure of the exact gauge but the cables should be approximately 1/2" in diameter.

Alan



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John T

12-31-2007 18:00:50




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to L.C.Gray, 12-31-2007 16:13:28  
LC, inside the distributor the points n condensor will work okay regardless if 6 or 12 volts but if you run that 6 volt coil at 12 volts it will overheat plus the points will burn up quick. Probably cheaper to buy an external series voltage dropping (12 to 6) Ballast Resistor to wire in after the switch n ahead of the coil then it is to buy a full true 12 volt coil, but either is fine. A 6 volt starter can work at 12 volts possibly a bit tough on starter drives but Ive never had real problems. You can get a 12 volt gennys and VoltGE Regulator or a shop can convert a 6 volt genny to a 12 volt

John T

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georgeky

12-31-2007 20:49:14




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to John T, 12-31-2007 18:00:50  
John T, I am still confused about this 6/12 volt coil theory. Is it not true that the 12 volt coil cuts the 12 volts down to 6 in order to work 6 volt ignition systems. I have always been told and was under the assumption that all distributors operate at 6 volts regardless of whether the electrical system is 6 or 12 volt. That seems to jive with the 12 volt coil for 12 volt systems, or the resistor to cut down voltage on a 6 volt coil. I guess what I am getting at is that 6 volts is what you get regardless of 6 or 12 volt coil. Never was to swift with electicity.

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John T

01-01-2008 09:37:03




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to georgeky, 12-31-2007 20:49:14  
Happy New Year George, WE pretty well beat this to death last week lol but Im glad to try n help with your questions.....

YOUR QUESTION

Is it not true that the 12 volt coil cuts the 12 volts down to 6 in order to work 6 volt ignition systems.

NOOOOO Most (but not all) 12 volt coils are designed n rated to operate on full 12 volt input and one major design consideration that makes them 12 n NOT 6 volt is their primary resistance being enough (around 3 ohms) to limit the amount of current the points have to switch to around 4 amps or less so they dont burn up too quickly. A 12 volt coil has around 3 ohms primary resistance between its lil + and - terminals (regardless if caused by more wire or an internal seperate discrete ballast resistor) while a 6 volt coil only has around half that or 1.5 ohms. They ARE NOT THE SAME AND NOT BOTH 6 VOLT COILS

Sooooo o to get 3 ohms of primary resistance (a 6 volt coil just has 1.5 ohms) in the 12 volt coil versus only half that used on a 6 volt coil MOST (not all) simply have more length of wire or turns so they have twice the primary resistance so the points current is held to around 4 amps or less.

Nowwwww there are a few 12 volt coils that do indeed work as you suspect, they have a seperate internal compartment and a seperate discrete internal ballast resistor to reduce the 12 volts down to 6 and the current through the coil/winding portion of the coil down to that 4 amp or so figure so the points dont burn up quickly. These appear to be the fewwwww Ive seen that have a ring on the can which is that seperate compartment where the resistor is housed. jd even showed some with the ressitr on top n very seperated but those were pretty old units n NOT like ones Ive seen on most thirties thru fifties Deere n IHC n other tractors n maybe not even 12 volt coils but 6 volt units.

jd did an excellent job of posting good correct info n pics that were internal ballasted coils (actually had an internal ballast) buttttt many were real old and many were 6 volt coils and one could even make out that ring or seperated internal component I mentioned. Stilllll ll most alllll ll 12 volt coils I ovserved over manyyyyy years of a used tractor dealer were NOT internally ballasted but instead were 12 volt coils with 3 ohms of primary resistance because they had more wire length/turns of primary winding and DID NOT have the outer ring or groove or the top compartment like jd's pics indicative of any seperated internal compartment housign a resistor .

SOOOOO O again a 12 volt coil IS NOT a 6 volt coil. The 12 volt has around twice the resistance so the points current is limited to arund 4 amps or less. Anddddd it dont matter if that resistance is more wire/turns (like most)
or a seperate internal ballast resistor (like the ones jd showed) SIMILAR a 6 volt coil is designed for 6 volts n only has around half the resistance (1.5 ohms) and if you apply 12 volts it will overheat plus the points burn up quuicker.

Thats why if you convert from 6 to `12 volts you must EITHER use a full true 12 volt coil (3 ohms resistance n 4 amps current) or add a series voltage dropping (12 to 6) ballast resistor so the coil only sees the 6 volts it was designed for and it n the points carry the same 4 amps.

Finally the 4 amps and 1.5 (6 volt coil) or 3 ohms (12 volt coil) is an approximation n not every coil in the world is exactky that. I try to explain in a few sentences here what it takes books to fill and I spent years in college n the practice to learn so dont dare try n expect it perfect for all in the world.....

John T Retired Elecrical Engineer

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georgeky

01-01-2008 10:43:41




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to John T, 01-01-2008 09:37:03  
John T, my bigger question was dont all distributors operate at 6 volts rather than 12 thus the need for 12 volt coils or resistors? See what I mean?



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John T

01-01-2008 11:31:57




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to georgeky, 01-01-2008 10:43:41  
George, The low voltage current switching portion of the distributor (points and condensor) is NOT a particular voltage sensitive or caring device ITS JUST A CURRENT SWITCH to conduct the coils current (regardlss if 6 or 12 volt coil) when points are closed and break it when they are open on high cam.

The points and condensor dont know or care so much about voltage so long as its not so high it would cause points or condensor failure. The voltage withstand ratings of the points n condensor is wayyyyy yyyyy higher then merely 6 or 12 volts anyway. They dont make a distributor to handle only 6 volts while another one can handle 12 THEY ARE THE SAME and switch the coils approximate 4 amps REGARDLESS if its a 6 or 12 volt coil. The voltage rating of the points n condensor is more like in the hundreds of volts NOT only a mere 6 or 12. The distributor will work n dont care if you have a 6 or 12 volt tractor or coil ITS JUST A SWITCH THAT closes when points close n opens when they are open and can do that regardless if theres 1 or 6 or 12 or 50 voltsat its input terminal/stud

SO AGAIN A distributor IS NOT a 6 or 12 volt distributor THEY ARE THE SAME N DONT KNOW OR CARE. When you convert from 6 to 12 volts you for sure DO NOT have to change or convert the distributor !!!!! !!!!! Its ONLY a current switch and it and its points n condensor can withstand wayyyyy yyyyy yy higher then 6 or 12 anyway.

AGAIN a 6 volt coil is NOT a 12 volt coil, see my post above so if anyone tries to tell you different they are just plain WRONG

Hope this helps n dont be worried if you cant understand what a person does who has a lifetime od training n experience can. Great questions n I hope you understand this..... .

John T

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James Williams

01-01-2008 05:10:34




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to georgeky, 12-31-2007 20:49:14  
I was always told the same.

jimmy



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Yugrotcart

12-31-2007 16:28:06




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to L.C.Gray, 12-31-2007 16:13:28  
You will need either a 12v coil or a 6v coil with an external resistor.

Paul



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Yugrotcart

12-31-2007 16:31:11




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 Re: Ignition: 6v to 12V in reply to Yugrotcart, 12-31-2007 16:28:06  
Here's a link to Bob M's wiring diagrams, they may help.

Paul



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