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Water

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Kristof

12-31-2007 03:28:37

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Oh god I don't know what to do anymore...
My Farmall C keeps leaking between the cylinderhead and the engine block, I've tried everything, My sleeves' height is correct according to my service manual and everything. It's my fourth attempt already to try and get it water-tight. The Only thing I can think of is that the waterchannels are to corroded for the seal to hold. Can anyone help me? Or has anybody faced the same problem? I'm thinking about using a teflon paste, But I'm not sure...
Everybody keeps telling me I'm crazy because I keep trying, but Damn, I'll never give up on my farmalls!

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John - OH

12-31-2007 16:45:11

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

I had a BN doing the same "weeping" thing on a fresh rebuild, machined head the whole nine yards. Tried several times to retorque with no avail. Took her out and worked her real good for about 2 hours. When I got done retorque the head. Has not leaked a drop in over a year. Just my 2 cents.

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John London, Tx

12-31-2007 09:25:32

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

Kris-How much torque are You putting on the nuts?I think the torque now recommended on some of these engines is higher than stated in the original manuals. A neighbor with a Super C this past summer even after resurfacing the head went to 75 or 80 lbs before getting it to seal. Don't know if that is excessive or not but may be worth researching. Good Luck --John

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Keith-OR

12-31-2007 09:12:35

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

Kris, Allan has the solution,way back when Ford had problems with the 272,292,and 312ci engines, with head gasket not sealing and weeping water. Ford recommended and it even published in all repair manuals to spray head, and gasket with aluminum paint.

Spray head and gasket couple of times let it dry spray again put together before paint drys completely. Have a good day..

Happy New Year

Keith & Shawn(Special Olympic Champion)

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CityBoy-McCoy

12-31-2007 07:03:35

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

Kristof:
I don't know if this will help in your situation, however for what it may be worth.... You mentioned corrosion around the water channels. I owned an outboard business on the Florida Gulf Coast for years. We often had big outboards come into the shop which had been used only in salt water for 20 years with no flushing. Sometimes a big V-6 would come in with a blown head gasket and we would find salt corrosion had eaten away the sealing surface between the water jacket and the cylinder wall casting - that there was basically nothing left except the top edge of the sleeve itself for a sealing surface against the head (the aluminum portion was erroded away). We would clean up the area, mix up some two part epoxy, and apply the epoxy to the erroded area as we installed the head gasket and cylinder head. The only alternative was to junk the block, or the entire outboard motor. I never saw an instance in 7 years where that fix did not work and hold well, even under compression readings of 125-140 psi.
The epoxy we used was made for OMC/Bombardier for gluing the magneto magnets inside flywheels, so it was heat resistant. But I would imagine JB Weld would work about as well.
mike durhan

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flashback

12-31-2007 07:39:07

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Re: Water in reply to CityBoy-McCoy, 12-31-2007 07:03:35

In that same light, I have repaired blocks and manifolds on my diesel engines on my backhoes and loaders with an epoxy simmilar to JB Weld called MArine Tex and never had a problem with them afterward. Its a wonder Mike forgot that good stuff. It can be had thru West Marine or Boaters worls online. However, JB Weld will probably do and I am sure the autoparts stores have some high heat epoxies for that purpose.

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Brownie450

12-31-2007 06:45:14

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

We've never had a C engine apart, but our SC has studs in the block with nuts to tighten & torque. My U-123 power unit book also shows studs/nuts on the head. Just an aside--hate to say it --but we've had good luck with JD TY15934 gasket sealer on heads. Seems to be better than copper-coat & paint thing. Question---Are you using an IH gasket? Might make a difference. Any chance of cracks near the side of the block causing trouble? If the head is flat, it should seal up.

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Bob Kerr

12-31-2007 06:32:11

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

Anytime I put a part back on like a head or manifold I use a big mill "bass -tard" file (yes misspelled because of the potty mouth filter!) and run it across the surface in one direction and count the strokes. I then turn it around and do it the opposite direction the same amount of strokes and I hold it at about a 45 deg angle. Keep even pressure on it by using your fingers on the file surface and not on the ends of the file. Boy does it show high and low spots! Usually the worst places are where bolts or studs go into a block. The pull from the torqueing will pull the iron up eventually and make a hump around the hole. you have to pull the studs out to do it. Once in a while I will find a place where the original machining wasn"t so great. like if the machining groves are too deep or uneven. The humps around the studs will not let the head torque right and the rest of the gasket surface won"t reach torque (crush)spec. It is worth a shot to try it.

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Kristof

12-31-2007 06:43:26

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Re: Water in reply to Bob Kerr, 12-31-2007 06:32:11

I have been thinking in that direction too. But the studs are rusted in there very tight.. If I try to take one out (I've tried on an other block that has frost-damage) I bend the studs or break a pieve out of my block.. So I'm affraid that's not an option for me :(

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Bob Kerr

12-31-2007 07:54:50

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 06:43:26

I was told this trick by an OLD steam engine guy to get stuck fittings out of boilers. He said heat the bolt or stud close to red and keep it at that temp for a while and DON"T heat the block with the torch. That lets the heat penetrate all the way down into the iron at the threads. Then take a wet rag and quench the stud and wiggle it back and forth till it is out.As it comes out, blow the rust dust off with air. I use ice cubes to quench the stud. Heat expands the block and the ice shrinks the stud so you basicly get a small bolt in a large hole deal. Main thing is DON"T get in a hurry to unscrew them. If it gets tight as it comes out, heat it up again and re quench it. Sometimes thet are tight to the last turn. Penetrating oil will acually not be of much help as it can quench the block before you are ready to turn the stud and if it is that tight, it won"t get in the threads anyway. The guy who taught me that really knows his stuff and was still farming with his Rumley Advance steamers well into the late 60s.

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Allan In NE

12-31-2007 06:48:32

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 06:43:26

Kris,

Is this just a "seep" or an old-fashioned leak?

Is collant actually "running" out of the seam when the level gets up to that gasket as you are filling?

Allan

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Kristof

12-31-2007 08:46:12

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Re: Water in reply to Allan In NE, 12-31-2007 06:48:32

Allan,

It just starts getting wet, as if it was sweating. If you wait a night you'll see there will be drops that have ran down the engine block

Kind Regards

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Allan In NE

12-31-2007 10:44:08

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 08:46:12

I guess if that was my tractor, I'd take it out and work the snot out of it. Get it really, really, really hot for an hour or so.

Shut it off, right there and then, retorque the head.

If that doesn't cure it, I swear to ya that the paint thing will.

Red shops have been pulling that trick for many, many years now.

Good luck. Sounds like you are "picky" like I am,

Allan

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Kristof

12-31-2007 16:08:03

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Re: Water in reply to Allan In NE, 12-31-2007 10:44:08

Hehe,

Well, I just want to know what's best for my farmalls ;). And ofcourse the main thing on my mind is learning..
Thanks for your advice, I'll get my baby running by the end of the week. I'll keep you posted, ok?

Kind regards

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caterpillar guy

12-31-2007 04:48:28

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

Get a parallel it is a straight edge but is not like the square or what ever you have been using for the guage on the block they are used in machine shops for just this purpose with a feeler guage try to slip it under the parallel if you can the block needs to be milled do the same with the head. Then I just use grease gun grease on the head gaskets I put on and never been an issue. Any machine shop worth their salt should have a parallel if you have the block milled they will have to cut the counter bore for the sleeve.

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Allan In NE

12-31-2007 04:54:28

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Re: Water in reply to caterpillar guy, 12-31-2007 04:48:28

Can they do that?

What do ya do about the stroke? Use two head gaskets?

Allan

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Andy Martin

12-31-2007 06:12:59

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Re: Water in reply to Allan In NE, 12-31-2007 04:54:28

The pistons just rise 0.002 or so higher, giving you more compression and less ring land at the top. You have to mill the block quite a bit to get into trouble.

The letter series are not like the newer engines. It's a lot of why I prefer them.

My problem is I have never had a warped block on a letter series tractor. Therefore I don't expect his problem to be a warped block. My how our experiences color our judgement!

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leon

12-31-2007 04:15:49

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

I've had or am still having the same problem with my SC. I've replaced the head gasket a couple of times, checked for flatness, used copper spray, retorqued, etc. However, upon advice of the learned on this board, I have concluded the weeping is most likely coming right through the porous middle part of the head gasket sandwich itself. Thus, for now I've given up on trying to hold anti-freeze in it, as it goes through the smallest of holes, and am using only water, plus I might add, a good shot of stop-leak. I think what mine really needs now is a plow day! I'm quite confident that with use it will eventually dry up. In the mean time, a little water seepage won't hurt a thing.

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Allan In NE

12-31-2007 04:12:07

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

This is a common IH malidy. You've resurfaced the head. Right?

And, you've made darned sure the head bolts aren't "bottoming out" on ya?

Yank 'er back off of there. Get a new head gasket and a can of aluminum spray paint.

Paint that gasket 4 or 5 times, letting it set up and dry a few minutes in between coats. Assemble in the normal way. It will seal, I promise.

If it doesn't, sorry, but you need an engine because the deck is warped.

Allan

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Kristof

12-31-2007 05:48:44

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Re: Water in reply to Allan In NE, 12-31-2007 04:12:07

Allan,

what do you mean by: the bolts aren't "bottoming out" on ya?

kind regards

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IaGary

12-31-2007 05:50:55

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 05:48:44

He means are the bolts to long and hitting the bottom of the threaded hole. Thus the bolts are tight, but the head is not pulled down tight.

Gary

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Allan In NE

12-31-2007 06:26:11

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Re: Water in reply to IaGary, 12-31-2007 05:50:55

And/or dirty threads where the bolt is torqued tight, but really isn't "holding" anything down.

Allan

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El Toro

12-31-2007 04:02:18

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

You should check or have the head checked for flatness. It may be warped. When torquing the head start in the center and tighten in both directions. Start with about 30 ft-lb and keep increasing the torque until you reach the recommended torque. Run the engine and get it hot
and then retorque it again. I would check the valve lash too to see if it has changed. Hal

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James Williams

12-31-2007 03:48:32

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 03:28:37

Kristof,I have several F series tractors,and one of them weeped a little,I used block sealer by directions and finally stoped.Did you retorque the head,Was the head planed,is the top of the block warped?Did you use any copper spray on the gasket.I know you want every thing right but try using it for a while and it will probally seal.Try to work it hard than re-torque a few pounds tighter than the last time.Just trying to kick start your brain,Im no expert

jimmy

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Kristof

12-31-2007 05:42:30

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Re: Water in reply to James Williams, 12-31-2007 03:48:32

I heard several people talking about copper spray or aluminiumspray, but do you think this will really help?
I had the Cylinderhead milled and everything, i completely revised the engine everything is new! I've been battling this problem for some time now.. Could there excist a product to treat the surface of your engineblock to kind of work out the scratches etc?

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MN Scott

12-31-2007 11:23:50

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 05:42:30

The instructions that came with my Super H gasket set said to coat gasket with copper coat or aluminum paint. You should be using a coating on your super C. Also the tourque on the head bolts has been up dated to 80 Ft Lbs. If your gasket is just seeping a bit I would just take the tractor out and work it and get it good and hot. I have had 706 gas new head gaskets seep a fair amount and I took them out and worked them and they all stopped leaking.

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Andy Martin

12-31-2007 06:08:35

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Re: Water in reply to Kristof, 12-31-2007 05:42:30

Scratches won't be your problem. Sealers like paint might help but are not necessary. The head gasket will deform to match the surface. You have some other problem.

How good was the shop that milled the head? They may have screwed it up. You should check it with a flat edge, only because you are having a persistent problem. A machinist's straight edge is good but you should be able to detect light under a carpenter's framing square if the square is pretty straight.

Check the bolts carefully and see if the threads look like they are damaged at the bottom from bottoming out. If your head was milled quite a bit it will be thinner, causing the bolts to go deeper in their holes. They may be hitting rusted up threads. This can be fixed by grinding off the ends of the bolts or by adding washers (trimmed to fit).

Did you start the engine and get it good and hot, then retorque the head?

Did you check your torque wrench? I have a broken one I loan out. It seems to work OK but consistently reads low. It was OK when I first loaned it out, so I keep it for a loaner.

I've never had a warped block so that is what I would check last.

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