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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil

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MikeK

11-23-2007 20:15:32




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Hello,

My 1948 farmall H will not start, so I dug into the ignition system. The condenser was bad, but before I put back together, I noticed that the Coil is a 12volt. The system is a 6 volt, the tractor ran but I only started it 10 times after I bought it, before I started to restore it.

Will this 12 volt coil be ok, or is this the reason my condenser is fried?

Thanks for your help




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John T

11-24-2007 06:11:43




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to MikeK, 11-23-2007 20:15:32  
Mike, a 12 volt coil will produce a spark if only supplied with 6 volts but it will be weak and no, I dont see that as the cause of your condensor problems. Ive seen coils labeled:

"12 Volts NOT for use with external ballast resistor" which are indeed full true 12 volt coils

"12 volts for use with (or requires) external ballast resistor" They are indeed actually 6 volt coils and such will work fine on a 6 volt tractor. They are used on 12 volt tractors that use a 6 volt coil and most have the start by pass feature which allows for a hotter start up spark, They sort of start on 12 volts and run on 6 volts.

Theres a common misperception (old wives tale) out there that all coils are 6 volt coils simply NOT true. A full true 12 volt coil has a primary winding resistance (measured between its lil + and - terminals) of around 2.5 to 3.5 ohms or so while a 6 volt coils is more like 1.25 to 2 ohms. ALSO some people refer to 12 volt coils as "internally ballasted" which some think have a built in discrete ballast resistor wired in series before the coil winding HOWEVER most achieve the added primary winding resistance simply either by having more primary wire/winding length or else use wire having a higher resistance per unit of measurement.

One limiting factor and the reason 6 and 12 volt coils are indeed different concerns the life of the ignition contact points which is limiting the current they are required to switch unde load to around 3 to 4 amps or so..... Thats why a 6 volt coil has say 1.5 ohms or primary resistance 6/1.5 = 4 amps) and a 12 volt coil say 3 ohms (12/3 = 4 amps)..... AND THEY ARE NOT ALL THE SAME 6 VOLT COIL..... ..

BOTTOM LINE you need a 6 volt coil on a 6 volt tractor cuz a 12 volt coil will produce a weak spark. All coils are NOT 6 volt coils, see the explanation and reasons why above

Yall take care now

John T

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Michael Koch

11-24-2007 20:36:52




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to John T, 11-24-2007 06:11:43  
Hello,

Thanks for all the help! I checked the coil and it is running avout 1.7-1.9 ohms. So it must be a 6 volt coil, with 12v on the side.

Again thanks for the help. I hope to try this out this week.



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Hugh MacKay

11-24-2007 02:30:13




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to MikeK, 11-23-2007 20:15:32  
Mike: Most situations we encounter on here are folks switching to 12 volt and putting a resistor in the system to reduce the voltage going to a 6 volt coil. Think about this, you already have reduced voltage going to a 12 volt coil. If you add a resistor you'll only reduce the voltage further. My thoughts if you have a true 12 volt coil your voltage at the points is already too low, the resistor will only reduce voltage even further. Your solution is go to a 6 volt coil.

Another factor you must consider is for some weird reason some 12 volt coils are labled 12 volt coil no external resistor required, while others are labled 12 volt coil requiring a added resistor. As I see it the first one is a true 12 volt coil, while the second example is nothing more than a 6 volt coil requiring a resistor when used as 12 volt. Why industry doesn't just call them 12 and 6 volt coils, beats me.

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Janicholson

11-24-2007 06:08:48




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to Hugh MacKay, 11-24-2007 02:30:13  
Hugh, I can answer that.
Engineers found out by testing and consumer input, that if a 12v system coil was designed to have neither an internal or external resistor, the reduction in starting voltage from the starter draw would reduce the coil output enough to compromise the starting capability. So automakers, and eventually tractor manufacturers. installed systems to compensate. They ran two wires to the ignition, one from the starter relay/solenoid directly to the coil, and one through the ignition switch to a resistor (Ford used a pink wire in the loom that was a resistor, while others used a block ceramic resistor)

The resistor bypass wire (that was connected to a terminal often labeled "I" on the solenoid or relay) allowed the 10 volts, of the remaining battery volts, to power the coil above the normal run voltage of the coil 10 volts on what is essentially a 6v coil. this raised the output at a time it was most needed, starting.

Another method of doing this is to use a thermal resistor that starts out cold and has low resistance, then gets hot and resists down to the 6v range. These can be internal (most) or external, allowing a simplified wiring system and about the same results. Seasons greetings from central MN Jim

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John T

11-24-2007 06:26:44




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to Janicholson, 11-24-2007 06:08:48  
Excellent, as an aside, on some makes of tractors that used a saddle starter mount mechanical push to start switch instead of an electric solenoid, the ballast by pass feature was achieved by an extra lil small terminal on the side of the starter switch which was hot ONLY while the switch was engaged. A lil wire was ran from there up to either the coils input or ballast output terminal (same ponnt electrically)..... ... Sooooo many of those got disabled over the years either cuz the wire got left off or disconencted or else the switch was replaced with one a lil cheaper that lacked that extra lil side terminal.....

As you well explained, that feature could really improve cold weather starting cuz when its cold the battery is less efficient PLUS the engine is harder to crank and the high starter current draw drops battery voltage drastically causing a weak spark WHEN YOU NEED IT THE MOST

Yall take care now

John T

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Nebraska Cowman

11-24-2007 04:16:11




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to Hugh MacKay, 11-24-2007 02:30:13  
What the truth is is that ALL coils are 6 volt. They either have an internal resistor or they don't. The ones with the internal resistor will generally be marked 12v.



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Hugh MacKay

11-24-2007 04:36:34




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 11-24-2007 04:16:11  
Howard: I know that, but you have to admit the labeling does create confusion for the average guy. I have suposedly two 12 volt coils. The one on my 130 is labeled 12 volt coil no external resistor required. The 12 volt coil on my 140 is labeled 12 volt coil, no mention of a resistor external or internal. I assume the same product, however are they?



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John T

11-24-2007 06:16:49




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to Hugh MacKay, 11-24-2007 04:36:34  
They probably are HOWEVER the way to tell for sure if its a 12 or a 6 volt coil is to measure the primary winding resistance between the lil + and - terminals. A 6 volt coil is around 1.25 to 2 ohms while a 12 volt is more like 2.5 to 3.5 or so. My post above explains the reasons why, which is to limit the amount of current the points have to switch to around 3 to 4 amps.

John T



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old

11-23-2007 21:18:28




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 Re: 6 volt system, has a 12 volt coil in reply to MikeK, 11-23-2007 20:15:32  
Well it could be that it has a 12 volt coil which needs a ballast resister and if so then would you believe the coil is really a 6 volt coil. Most coils will say right on the external resister need or something about no resister need



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