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what octane gas to run?

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new 560 owner i

10-29-2007 10:04:19




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I just bought a 59 farmall 560 gas with a 263 in it. what gas should i run in it? some research on the subject has lead me to believe that 93 octane was recommended, but, where do i get it? any gas station i go to only has 91. is 91 okay to use with this tractor? I don't have an owner's manual yet, so any input would be appreciated. can anyone tell me what the owner's manual acutally says?




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dhermesc

10-31-2007 05:49:55




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
At least we know you weren't being serious.



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dhermesc

10-30-2007 09:10:04




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
From another thread:

The IH manual for my 404 says - This engine is designed to operate on gasoline with a 93 minimum Octane rating ( Research Method ).
The key being "Research Method". The Research Method octane rating is not what you see on the pump these days. What you see on the pump is a combination of Research and Motor octane ratings and will be 4 or 5 points lower than the numbers shown using just the Research Method.
IOW, 89 as shown on the pump these days will be about 93-94 Research Method octane. It makes sense that these 70's and older engines would run on current 89 octane rating fuel given their low compression and low rpm operation.
Some links about fuel octane that include more links -
Link
Link

To summerize, 87 octane today is the equivilent of 91-92 Octane in 1970.
Unless you are running more than 8.5 to 1 compression you don't need to run higher octane (+87) to prevent predetonation even with older ignition set ups. If you are having a predetonation problem your issue is not with you fuel.

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the tractor vet

10-31-2007 16:32:26




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to dhermesc, 10-30-2007 09:10:04  
I am telling you that if you work a 460 on up thru the 856 gas on the 87 you will seeze that engine . like i said workingit in like pullen the plow that was made for the tractor or running a chopper or even a grinder mixer OR even blowen a load of silage up the pipe . And you will never hear a ping out of it it will miss a couple beats and just plum slow down and stop and will not start again till she cools down . Now i don't know about you but myself i will run what i know works and keeps me from twisten wrenches . Sop here again when you have worked on as many as i have and have seen what is done inside the engine then you can tell me . AND also for you information the car and light trucks of the sixtys thru 1971 were all in the 9.1 -11 to 1 compression ratio It was seventy two when they started cutting back on the cars but on the tractors they did not do that they just stopped maken them in gas The 766 was the last gas tractor for I H and they did not start rollen back the octane till the late seventys and 80's . As i was still doing work on somer of the older performance cars and that is about when we started have problems with the 10.5 and 11 to 1 compression ratio's . SO it is like this if you were closer i would say just bring your tractor on over and we will fill yours with the 87 put the plow on it and turn you lose and if ya made the end of the field before she locked up i would be totaly supprised. I fought a 460 that lived on a manure spreader and hauled one load twice a day , it would do fine going down hill on the field but it would not pull back up and would just slow down and lock up had to set for fifteen min. then it would maybe make it back up the rest of the way , never a ping out of it he was another like you ya don't need that high priced gas well oneday she did not restart and it was hauled or i should say towed as the guy did not want to pay me 25 buck to haul it. When i pulled the head off all six were scored pistons junk sleeves scrap . HE went and bouth the parts as here again he was sure that i was maken to much on my parts . Built the motor and told him that he needed to up his grade of gas . Nope i ain't ah doing that told him flat out that when it took a dump it was his baby was not two days and he was back the tractor had a noise pulled the head and 4 of the six were scored .Fixed it and told him again this time he took my advice and switched gas it is still doing the same job everyday but now it will go both ways on the fields with a load in soft ground . So you run what you think is best and let the rest decide as it is getting to the point that i am getting to where i plum don't care if ya scrap out your engine . As i said before i am not the one asken what is wrong with my tractor and how to fix then as i know how .

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Bus Driver

10-30-2007 09:37:15




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to dhermesc, 10-30-2007 09:10:04  
Interesting comments about octane in this article about the 1949 Cadillac.



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the tractor vet

10-30-2007 17:11:57




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-30-2007 09:37:15  
Yea thats all well and good for back then But lets move forward here and lets say me move on up to oh 1970 , 2when the 756's were being built and the new models of the GOOD old cars were coming out . Lets say you are the one that bought the Duster that i bought Slighty driven only used for testing . Just a little old 340 under the hood and instead of only doing 0 to 60 in 13 .6 seconds ya feel froggy and ya mash the gas never touching the selector just leave it drive and before your foot hit the floor you are throwen back in the seat and ya feel the 727 nail second and in just a mere 4 seconds you are passen 70 and if ya have the stones large enough ya just keep the hammer down and watch the speedometer heading past the 150 mark . YEP time have changed and we have come a long way baby . And so did the gas . YEP thats wright i bought a 1971 DUSTER 340 and it was sorta like Burger King as it took two hands to handle that whoppper . And no i am not tryen to pull your leg on what that little car would do and i can back that up with the guys that are still alive that have went for a ride in it .

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NDS

10-30-2007 05:51:18




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
Never had any experience with the 6 cylinder gasoline tractors but if IH actually built a farm tractor that required prenium gasoline that was certainly another nail in theie casket.



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Nat 2

10-30-2007 07:35:31




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to NDS, 10-30-2007 05:51:18  
93 octane was hardly premium gas when these tractors were in their heyday. Didn't you read vet's account of putting 105, ONE-HUNDRED-FIVE, octane gas in that old Mack truck?



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NDS

10-30-2007 09:09:24




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to Nat 2, 10-30-2007 07:35:31  
Do not know what Tractor Vet ran in his truck but I drove a truck some in that day and we did not use 105 octane for sure and fleets that ran hundreds of gasoline trucks did not either . As has been pointed out before in this thread Reasearch method octane ratings were poated on pumps 30/40 years ago and that method gave higher octane rating than todays posted numbers which are are average of mechanical/reasearch method and that gives lower number. Bought new Toyota Tundra in 2000 and manual called for 91 octane reseach method or 87 octane research/mechanical method. The fact that that octane is average of research/mechanical method is posted in small letters on most gasoline pumps.

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NDS

10-30-2007 09:58:21




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to NDS, 10-30-2007 09:09:24  
Should have said motor not mechanical method.



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Bus Driver

10-30-2007 08:41:01




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to Nat 2, 10-30-2007 07:35:31  
Tractor vet is the only source I have found that makes such a claim. About the middle of the page at this link is very different information. 105 octane would have been aviation fuel.



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ww

10-30-2007 04:42:37




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
I had a nice running 560 went to plow day I showed those guys how fast I could pull the 3 16s. about an hour latter the engine froze up. after it cooled down it started, but now it knocks so my neighbors can hear it (87 octane)



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the tractor vet

10-30-2007 20:56:12




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to ww, 10-30-2007 04:42:37  
Ah grasshopper you learn the hard way . And when the day comes that ya pull her down you will find that the tops of the pistons above the top ring is where all your problems started From using that 87 and if it had MTB or MTD or alkihol in it it will happen faster. As all these additives make oxygen and lean the fuel mix at peak combustion even more . Just like running a Alki race car if ya lean it out to much she will make all kinds of power and will melt her self down and take and early lunch. Ya do like i say and it will run a long time. Believe me i have learned all this the hard way and spent big buck to come up with a way to make a gasser live on todays gas . Ad here if i would have read the Owners manual first and fallowed it i would not have had the problems. As I H already did all this way back . Like i said around here there is a lot more old tractors working everyday then the new ones . We do not have the large farms but lots of small dairy farms and for years they have had hard times tryen to keep there heads above water . Alot of the tractors that they are usen are ones that i bought brought home and went thru them and made them a good strong go to the field cheep tractor . I lost count of the number of 706gassers that i hauled home and rebuilt . The local Case I H dealer told me one day that he saw a couple OLD RAG 706 gassers setting by the shop . YEp there are two outside and one split inside getting a new T/A and clutch and one in the paint booth . He tells me you can't sell them old tractors nobody wants a gas , Oh really three are already sold and the forth is what i am going to farm with when i get that one done Well it sold before i ever got it in the field . So i sorta know my I H 's I e4ven offered to buy a couple for the dealer to put on his lot, But He would not BUY them junk tractors . Well not long after our little talk one day he send one of his salesman and one of his customers up to see if i had any tractors for sale as his customer wanted to buy a baler and a tractor , he had the baler But like always no tractors setting on his lot . Well i had just got in a 706 diesel and this ratty old 806 . I told the guy that i had not even looked at the 706 yet but if he wanted it i would get it in and go all over it and fix what ever i found and i would stand behind my work for 90 days and any parts that i had to put in if it needed a T/A i would install a three year warranty one and stand behind that for the full three years . WELL I PUT HIM IN A GOOD 706 For a good price . I was happy the dealer was happy as i was Mr. nice guy and gave him a little for bring the man up It was like he had to eat CROW . Just love it when a plan comes together.

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Bus Driver

10-30-2007 11:05:34




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to ww, 10-30-2007 04:42:37  
Yes, I understand. I have seen head gaskets blow when there is a full moon. Coincidences happen all the time.



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karl f

10-29-2007 19:35:51




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
the manual will likely say "93 octane research method." If you look at today's pumps, they will say "?? octane rating (r+m/2)." There are 2 methods of determining the octane rating, and both seperately will come up with a different number. today's octane rating is an average of the two. skipping the science, today's 91 octane, measured r+m/2 will likely be equivalent or barely higher than 93 octane observed with only the research method. there is a lot of info on octane on the internet. on our farm, my dad cannot justify high test so, i just let it go. changed the plugs on the 656 gasser 18 mo.s after an overhaul, and all kinds of carbon in the combustion chambers!

listen to T V

karl f

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LenND

10-29-2007 15:03:02




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
Tha tractor was not made to run on any high octane gas. It was made to run on plain old regular --leaded or unleaded. If you want to put in an additive just add a little 10-30 oil and it will do just as good as any additive on the market. But the 560 doesn't need any additive.



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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 15:53:58




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to LenND, 10-29-2007 15:03:02  
You are 100% correct , But Do you know what PLAIN OLD REG gas was back then????? Alsop do you KNOW what gas should be run in a gas truck engine From that time frame??? Since you really don't know , then why don't you do some checking as the gas ratings from that time frame . And adding motor oil to the gas raises the risk of burning and exhaust valve or fouling plugs . And yes a 560 is considered a high comp. engine verses a C281 in a 450 . It is getting to the point that All of you know it alls that i am sure that you have more time working and building engines then me know far better . And like i have said before only god knows how many times that head has been shaved and with the size of the combustion chamber it does not take much to start raisen the compression .

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Bus Driver

10-30-2007 08:43:34




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to the tractor vet, 10-29-2007 15:53:58  
Middle of the page at this link.



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LenND

10-29-2007 18:21:17




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to the tractor vet, 10-29-2007 15:53:58  
I forgot to mention that the quality of gas before and during world war two was probably the poorest it could possibly be. Thanks for listening to my speech. Len



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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 20:14:10




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to LenND, 10-29-2007 18:21:17  
This may be true , but after the war that is when the trend to MORE power started . All them old distallat tractors got rebuilt with higher domed pistons and the old Cast iron pistons got throwen out in the scrap for the aluim. forged pistons with the step head desigen or the flat heads then along comes companys like M&W maken more PERFORMACE tractor parts . So guys could plow in third gear rather then second . and the auto ind. started maken bigger cars that went faster with bigger engines . Trucks got bigger and faster and the fuel comp. had to stay in pace with the engines . Before i went to the service i was playen with hot cars and fast wimmen and i worked construction . A times i would have to drive the one lowboy outfit that we had that was a 57 B60 Mack pullen a fifty ton lowboy BIG old 6 cylinder GAS with a huge 4bbl carb 5 speed with a 4 speed . ANd that old girl lived on 105 octane GAS like all the old gas powerd truck of the day . The owner of the company kept no gas at the shop because of some people would believe it or not steal it back then. Well when it came time to Feed the Mack i would run up the road about ahalf mile to the little fuel stop that was on old US 224 a major truck route and Feed the old DOG with 105 octane gas she held 250 gallons of the stuff and back then we got a three cent discount and it cost 15.9 cents a gallon . Well the boss told me that i could buy gas for my car out there under the company name as long as i paid cash . Well that is where i fed my 56 ford and my 61 ford . I learned a bunch about fuels over the years of building race engines and worken in car dealer ships after i came back from the service . I worked on The hot Mo pars for a couple years then went to take over a dealerships racing program with fords. Learned more worked with the factory engineers with new parts that they were bring out for the over the counter sales to the young set . Did alot of work with customers that had driveabilty problems and here i learned more about the gas that was out there and who's gas did what to engines . Learned real fast that SOHIO's Boron with valve cleaner was just that , it would eat valves out of fords. The dealership had one customer that had bough a bunch of ford stright trucks with the 391's 477's and the big 534's he put dump bed on them and it was not long before they were coming in with valves out of them . Somehow i end up getting involved with his problem even though trucks were not part of drag racing . Three of us along with a couple of factoy reps , the guys that would come to the dealership remove his sports jacket and roll up his nice white shirt sleeves dawn a shop coat and dig in the dirt and grim with ya and work together to solve the problem . Now i am tellen ya ya ain't never lived till ya pull the head off a F950 that has a 534 . Today i could not even lift one end of the head but one guy hangen over the fender and up and out. That problem was the SOHIO Boron that the guy was using changed gas uped the octane rating and no more problems . The late 50 thru the mid 70's is whenmost of the big gas farm tractors were in use and believe me they were built to runthe REg gas of the day back then and back then 95 octane was the rating of REG LEADED GAS for the most part . Now some of the flyby night elcheep o station had gas that was down in the 90-93 rating and the engines of the day would let you know real fast . Same goes for the late 4and 6 cylinder I H gasser . First off they are HIGH rpm engines with smaller bores and shorter strokes . Less time to get rid of the combustion heat . Gas tractors run hotter then a diesel . If ya ever plowed at night with a good running gas tractor the exhaust manifold is almost cherry red all the way up . A diesel unless ya turn the wick way up they do not get that hot . Then came the Emission 's and the compression ratio started to fall off cam timing got set back ing. timing went everywhere and performance and fuel mileage went into the dumpster and here we are today driven gutless wonders that just suck gas and go noplace . and fuel has changed to meet emission . And the reg. of today burns real hot alot hotter then of days gone by and the octane has gone down . And tryen to run and WORK a gas tractor of today that was made to run on the gas of yesterday or just try and run a old lets say 428 SCJ mustang set up the way it came out in lets say 1969 at factory spec's and not tweeked up to run . Oh it will fire up and maybe drive down the road BUT what will happen if ya stand on it with the reg. gas of today or even for that matter the So called Hightest of today . As it was made to run 100 + and the MAW AND PA drive to the store would just run on the 93 of today butya would have to trim back the timing about five degrees and when ya lay timing back they start to get hot . just like if ya go to far the other way.

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LenND

10-29-2007 20:49:26




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to the tractor vet, 10-29-2007 20:14:10  
Hey T vet? I don't doubt your word a bit cause I think you know what your talking about. We ran M's until the late fifties and would take the heads off every couple of years and have the valves done and new gasket and that was it. Then we went to a 706 and 656 and we farmed about 1200 acres-mostly plowed in those days These were all gas jobbers. After that we went to diesels

Up until the mid fifties we had a very poor quality of farm gas in this area. The farmers claimed they added this little oil to help from burning the valves. Did it help-who knows--it seemed to they said.

Talk to ya later. Len

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Steven f/AZ

10-29-2007 19:43:31




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to LenND, 10-29-2007 18:21:17  

LenND said: (quoted from post at 18:21:17 10/29/07) I forgot to mention that the quality of gas before and during world war two was probably the poorest it could possibly be. Thanks for listening to my speech. Len


560 was designed and built a while after WWII...

The six cylinder IH engines are a whole new ballgame compared to the old low RPM long stroke four bangers!

And, personally, I haven't read anything from the tractorvet that was wrong yet - I'd take his advice.

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LenND

10-29-2007 18:15:55




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to the tractor vet, 10-29-2007 15:53:58  
I agree with you that I probably don't know much. But I was driver tractors before most of you guys were born so I like to think some of my experience is worth something and if it can help somebody then I am glad. When I was growing up in this area most farmers added about a pint of oil to acouple hundred gallon of gas and never heard of any problems. If it was fouling plugs then it had a oil burning not related to that pint of oil.

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John T

10-29-2007 12:17:54




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
Sorry, I dont have any owners manual either but basically you wanna run a high enough octane as necessary so theres no pre ignition or spark knock and all this depends to a large extent on the engines compression n timing n operating tepmeratures. Higher octane gas is purposely refined for a burn rate and difficulty in initiation so as to prevent pre ignition spark knock in higher compression engines, but you dont wanna burn higher octane then is necessary.

Do you have any Sunoco Stations that offer those different grades????? ? If not Id try the higher octane first and then lil at a time lesser octane until she pre ignites then bump it back up a grade so it stops UNTIL YOU GET A MANUAL AND THEN GO WITH WHAT IT SAYS VERSUS ANYTHING SAID HERE CUZ IHC KNOWS THE DESIGN SPECS N PARAMETERS BETETR THEN ANY OF US

best wishes, let us all know

John T

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 10:26:05




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  
Ya may be ok on the 91 BUT make darn sure that your ing. timing is dead on the money at rated RPM . AND DO NOT TRY AND WEEN BACK ON THE MAIN FUEL SCREW ON THE CARB. Ya have to keep in mind that over the ears that that head has been off and has been milled down to take the warp out of it and also even though it is a 560 with the supposely C263 ya just may find that it has been upgraded to a 706 C263 or even a C291 . Just like most old tractors when it came time to overhaul the shop would ask if ya wanted a few more ponys and i have NEVER meet a farmer that did not want more. ANd when ya asked them it was just about always the same answer well just how much more can ya get me . So with the head being milled down god only knows how many times and the moving up to the 706 pistons that ups the comp. ratio and therefore up HP. and the need for a better grade of fuel is needed . Now it is like this if ya hear it octane ping you can almost bet your bippy that it is already to late. as with engine noise and gear train noise on a tractor it is at times hard to hear it till the vary last second before she lock up . And don't think that i will see the temp gauge going up as when they super heat on the top of the piston it happens so fast that that heat never has the time to sink into the coolant.

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Rootsy

10-29-2007 10:14:28




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to new 560 owner in ks, 10-29-2007 10:04:19  

new 560 owner in ks said: (quoted from post at 10:04:19 10/29/07) I just bought a 59 farmall 560 gas with a 263 in it. what gas should i run in it? some research on the subject has lead me to believe that 93 octane was recommended, but, where do i get it? any gas station i go to only has 91. is 91 okay to use with this tractor? I don't have an owner's manual yet, so any input would be appreciated. can anyone tell me what the owner's manual acutally says?


good ole 87 should suffice nicely... If you plan to USE the tractor for more than putting around and light duty use a lead additive, unless you know for sure if hardened seats have been put in the head...

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 10:40:17




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 Re: what octane gas to run? in reply to Rootsy, 10-29-2007 10:14:28  
THe use of the socalled LEAD additive and i do not care who's ya use is a total waist of money as here again WE had the same lab test some SO CALLED lead additive and the chemist told me and put i the written report that in laymens terms there was not enough lead in that stale petroleum distillates as he called it was not enough lead to write your name let lone do ANY THING for the engine . Since I H engines have harden seats and Stelite valves on the exhaust and rotators Don't worry about that snake oil . Worry more about what oil ya dump into the engine .

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