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H starting issue(s)

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CJAA

10-28-2007 17:47:00




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Had the H running, shut it off and about an hour later it wouldn"t crank. I have since had the starter checked, new battery, new push button starter, wire wheeled all the battery connections. It will now crank a couple of times and then nothing, I can hear the starter getting enough juice to make it click. I"ve heard that maybe the ring gear is bad, how do I know? Also, if I turn the fan blade by hand, I can see the ring gear moving,(with the starter out of course. I have long arms too) but, I get to a point where I can"t turn it all. I have rocked it back and forth in reverse, 5th gear and still nothing, I have not tried to pull start yet. Thanks for any advice/comments!

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CJAA

10-30-2007 18:30:36




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
Update 2:Had the plugs out again tonight, engine will spin all the way around using the starter, it will NOT spin around when I try to do it by hand. Any ideas??



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CJAA

10-29-2007 18:22:56




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
Update: Just came in from the shed, had the plugs and starter out and can't get a full revolution turning fan by hand..... ..... so now what? Bad news I'm assuming,sheesh.



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J in Pa

10-29-2007 14:01:27




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
if you have checked everything cables, grounding ,etc. get the starter checked again.lots of times a weak starter will show good on the bench test.
i had a problem with mine for about ren years until a fella told me about some lugs that have wires soldered into them inside the starter, i think for the brushes. these wires will get hot and short out causing the solder to get hot and flow out of the connection.
result, sounds like a dead battery even with a new battery in it.
mine looked good on the bench test but under load its a different story.

good luck
J in Pa

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CJAA

10-28-2007 19:39:17




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
The ground (positive wire off battery) is grounded to the frame. I still can't get over the mental hump of this positve ground thing! I had the starter tested and the guy said it should be okay, he had it whirling pretty good, but it was out of the tractor, which could be proving the bad battery cable idea. Can the cables be bought specific to the tractor or do they have to be made? Could the run/off switch have any factor in this or does that only figure in once the tractor has started? I have no reason to believe its bad but just eliminating possibilities.

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Janicholson

10-29-2007 06:00:19




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 19:39:17  
Interesting terms "whirling pretty good" Starters on a bench are violent and powerful acting things. They snap into action adn are up to speed so rapidly that they need to be held in a vice to prevent their own starting torque from sending them off the bench. The time to full unloaded speed (on a 650CCA battery) is .25 seconds. So whirling pretty good is a very mild description. Use the cheep tester I mentioned before. It tells the story when the starter is on the engine. JimN

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El Toro

10-29-2007 03:48:38




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 19:39:17  
Heavy welding cables will make good battery cables. Don't make them any longer than necessary
and solder the battery lugs on the ends. Hal



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old

10-28-2007 19:54:15




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 19:39:17  
Ignition swithc has nothing to do with it turning over or not. The engine should turn over with it on or off because they are different circuits in the system. Most of the time you have to make your own cables or maybe go to a tractor dealer to get them becuase most auto parts stores don't carry the bigger cables but some can order them in. Also a good place to use as a ground hook up is one of the starter bolts since then you have to ground right at the starter, which I do on most of my tractors if I can

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Janicholson

10-28-2007 19:26:50




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
If the starter is dragging inside it will spin like new with no load. I would check starter current by using a cheap gauge that is held to the side of the bat cable, or check the volts at the battery (for three seconds) while the starter is engauged. Should have 85 to 90% of no load volts or starter is dragging/shorted. JimN



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El Toro

10-28-2007 19:26:06




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
I would pull the sparkplugs and see if it will turn one complete revolution before pull starting. You could damage the drivetrain if the engine is stuck for some reason. Hal



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CJAA

10-31-2007 18:39:52




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to El Toro, 10-28-2007 19:26:06  
Had the plugs out, could not turn the motor over by hand. Hooked the starter back up, it WILL spin the motor with the plugs out....whats my next move?



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El Toro

11-02-2007 06:11:28




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-31-2007 18:39:52  
Any progress on the engine? Hal



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El Toro

11-01-2007 04:05:18




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-31-2007 18:39:52  
You should be able the turn the engine by hand. I would squirt some engine oil into each cylinder and see if you can turn the engine by hand. You may need to use the starter to get the cylinders coated with oil then see if you can turn it by hand. Does it show any oil pressure when using the starter to crank it? You can reinstall the plugs and see if it will crank with the plugs installed. If it won't, I think you will need to pull the head. Before you do that put another
help question on the Farmall forum. It may be less work to pull the pan and check your oil pan for metal particles. You could have some bearing
issues. If you do find metal particles I would
pull one bearing cap at at a time and inspect it.
Reinstall and retorque it if looks ok. Make sure you have good battery cables 00 if you're using 6 volt battery and soldered lugs. Was this engine recently rebuilt? They're hard to turn when everything is new, but you should still be able to turn it by hand. Hal

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CJAA

11-01-2007 18:09:50




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to El Toro, 11-01-2007 04:05:18  
Well, heres what I know. Put some oil in each cylinder and started turning the engine by hand, it will turn but when I hit a certain spot it gets really hard to turn and a couple of times it stopped, if I rock the fan blades back and forth abit I can turn thru it slowly. I also found some bad teeth (maybe an inch worth) on the ring gear and they show up in the starter hole at the spot where the engine is tight to turn. I have NOT tried to pull start it.

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El Toro

11-01-2007 18:51:48




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 11-01-2007 18:09:50  
Teeth missing or worn on the ring gear shouldn't
cause the engine to turn hard or keep it from turning by hand. Its just used to provide a mechanical advantage for the starter for cranking the engine. Pull starting isn't going to solve
the engine problem when you can't fully rotate the engine one complete revolution by hand. I would pull the head and see if there's a scored
cylinder. Will the starter spin the engine freely with or without the plugs installed? You may have a spun bearing. You need to look at your valves to make sure they're all free and moving when the engine is being turn since one may not be fully closed.

While you have plugs out of the engine you need to bring No1 piston near the radiator to top dead center on the compression stroke. Hold your thumb over the plug hole and have someone hand crank the engine until you compression against your thumb. You can drop a "large" handle screwdriver on top of the piston and then watch the screwdriver rise as someone slowly cranks the engine. When it quits rising your No1 piston should be at TDC. Your timing mark on the damper pulley should be aligned with the pointer,
pull the distributor or mag cap and see where the rotor is pointing. It should be at the No1 plug tower. Check the valves on No1 cylinder both should be closed. Hal
PS: Let me know what you find.

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John T PS

10-28-2007 19:06:58




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
Lets see now, starter checks ok,,,,new battery,,,,,new push starter switch hmmmmm mmm if thats all true and all those are good, Id wonder about the cables and the ground integrity. On 6 volt systems Id use 00 gauge cables cuz light thin wimpy ones like 2 0r 4 gauge etc can drop too much voltage causing poor cranking. Similar if the ground is to any thin wimpy rusty sheet metal it can cause poor cranking, try it to a good clean solid frame bolt if thats the case. On those cheap cables they can look fine to the eye but theres a loose internal connection and heat has caused caused resistive carbon underneath causign poor cranking.

If the switch is one of the saddle mount direct to the starter types, the starter post under them can be worn or pitted or carboned up which can cause poor cranking

This all assumes the battery n switch n starter are good as you claim?????

John T

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Pat-CT

10-28-2007 18:41:22




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
losen the plugs and try turning it all the way over if its free it was compression you could try pull starting it



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CJAA

10-28-2007 18:57:57




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to Pat-CT, 10-28-2007 18:41:22  
I'll give that a whirl tomorrow. As far as the pull starting, what's the best gear to use?



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old

10-28-2007 19:36:27




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 18:57:57  
Pull starting is the very last thing to even think about. Unless you know 100% sure you don't have a problem in the engine because if there is a problem in the engine you could mess up the engine more and or the tranny. Also as I said it could be battery cables and on 6 volts you need 0 or )) battery cables not the little #2 battery cables auto parts stores sell since they will not carry the amps needed and will go bad very fast

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old

10-28-2007 17:50:55




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 17:47:00  
First off is it 6 or 12 volts?? You may have a bad battery cable or 2 which would cause that. Or yes you could have a bad ring gear. Pull the starter and then slowly turn the engine over and look at the ring gear to see if maybe you have some bad teeth on it



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CJAA

10-28-2007 18:15:59




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to old, 10-28-2007 17:50:55  
It's a 6 volt system, guess I didn't figure the cables could be bad, they look good to the eye,no breaks anywhere. Like I wrote previously, if I have the starter pulled, I can watch the ring gear while I spin the fan by hand, but it gets to a point where I can't turn it, is this because of compression, or is this a sign of trouble? It has cranked a couple of times, not enough to start it, then all I get is a "clunk" at the starter.

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old

10-28-2007 19:17:20




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 Re: H starting issue(s) in reply to CJAA, 10-28-2007 18:15:59  
Cables can and do go bad even when they look good. I've had it happen many times over the years. The cable correde inside and you can't see that and the resistance gets to high for the battery to spin the starter. As far as turning the engine pull the spark plugs and then you will be able to turn the engine over with no trouble

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