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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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3 amp diode will this protect alt???

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keith smith

10-21-2007 17:48:56




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looks like i cooked another alt

replaced my alt (napa 2134508d) and it died after
hr of replacing it.

jim you say to use a 3 amp diode in excite wire

will this protect my alt???

coil and alt run off same side of the (on off) toggle switch. ... could the coil be spiking the alt???

by the way i bought a analog volt meter and i did
show that the alt was charging at the alt battery terminal...for a little while any way.

not

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Bus Driver

10-22-2007 04:18:05




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to keith smith, 10-21-2007 17:48:56  
An open circuit in the sensing circuit can "fry" the diodes. Removing a battery cable while the engine is running creates the same problem and the same results. The sensing or feedback circuit "reads" the output voltage of the alternator. An open circuit means that the sensing circuit reads "zero" and the built-in regulator boosts output voltage to try to get the proper voltage at the sensing terminal. The voltage in such instances can easily climb to over 120. Check your wiring carefully, in every detail.

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keith smith

10-22-2007 18:02:19




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-22-2007 04:18:05  
hi all
thanks for all your imputs

i am loading a picture so you can see the
hookup of the harness preveous owner used http://members.localnet.com/~woodslip/harness.jpg

red wire far right is the excite wire. that is the only wire used...yellow connector other end is where it connected to lead from switched side
of on off toggle. other wire was not hooked up at all.


looks like he used original wire going from alt bat term to starter solenoid.


funny didnt have problem till i changed the excite wire from alt bat term to the switched
side of toggle.


he put in a seperate toggle switch for the alt bat wire. told me to toggle it off or would drain bat....as it did.

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Bob

10-22-2007 19:25:07




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 WOW... Lets get this fixed! in reply to keith smith, 10-22-2007 18:02:19  
WOW! That's QUITE a jumble of wire in your photo!

Give THIS a try...

Third Party Image

You can use your choice of "MY" diode, "BobM's" "idiot light", or "JohnT's" resistor anywhere that's conenient in the wire feeding power from the ignition switch to the alternator's #1 "switched excite" terminal.

You only need ONE of those three options, and ALL work EQUALLY WELL.

If you want an "idiot light" in the dash, go that route. USe a #194 lamp, or one of equivalent current draw.

If you want to use a resistor, go that way, but be advised it will get HOT, if the key happens to get left on, so you need to mount it so that it can dissipate the heat without melting any wires.

That's why I almost always use the DIODE... it provides protection to the alternator if there's a problem in the high-current part of the charging system wiring, and prevents the engine from "running on" when the ignition is switched "OFF", but it doesn't get HOT, so it can simply be covered in heat shrink tubing, and taped up along with the other wires in the harness.

Questions?

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Bob

10-21-2007 22:29:32




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to keith smith, 10-21-2007 17:48:56  
It's ALMOST impossible to "toast" an alternator.

The quickest way is probably to have a poor connection in the wiring somewhere between the alternator's output stud and the battery, causing wild voltage surges, and, if there's no diode, resistor, or "idiot lamp" in the "switched excite circuit", the alternator will attempt to charge the battery through the "excite" circuit, "killing" it's internal diode trio and/or voltage regulator. These diagrams show how that happens:

Third Party Image

Third Party Image

Also, if the alternator is poorly grounded, or the #2 "voltage sense" connection is not properly connected, possibly the alternator will "lose it's smoke".


I wish I could "autopsy" your failed alternators... that would give a good idea if it was just freak failures from a couple of "bad" alternators, or just WHAT is failing.

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John T

10-21-2007 18:59:40




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to keith smith, 10-21-2007 17:48:56  
Keith, I dont see a diode as furnishing much overcurrent protection on the GM 10 SI 3 wire alternators excitation circuit. In the forward bias ON mode while it has a 0.6 voltage drop, theres very little other current limiting protective resistance. Its most used purpose is to prevent backfeeding the coil so the engine stops when you turn the ignition off. To provide some degree of current limiting protection for the excitation circuit I recommend a 10 ohm resistor in which case the diode isnt usually even needed. When you use an idiot light in that circuit its even higher then 10 ohms resistance which still provides sufficient excitation current with plenty of protection and NO DIODE is required then either. True, Ive seen them wired with diodes or no diodes and no resistance at all n they worked n excited just fine buttttt tt being a conservative Id opt for at least 10 ohms of current limiting protection (or the higher ohms idiot light) and usually the diode (which offers little protection) isnt even needed..... ..

John T

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Janicholson

10-21-2007 18:34:48




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to keith smith, 10-21-2007 17:48:56  
I do know that bad connections in the circuitry can fry alternators. The diode prevents discharging the battery, and having the engine keep running when the key is shut off (which happens) JimN



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John T

10-21-2007 19:17:06




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to Janicholson, 10-21-2007 18:34:48  
Yo Jim,,,,, ,, When you say "The diode prevents discharging the battery" are you talking a diode OTHER THEN the one some people use in the GM 10 SI No 1 terminal excitation circuit????? ????? I ask cuz that diode is installed forward bias you know so current can flow from a + battery source (like out of ignition switch when its ON) to the alternator (to excite it) but NOT reverse current from the alternator backwards (i.e. its one way check valve normal diode function). If the ignition switch is left on the battery will discharge via the coil and closed points to ground plus a smaller amount of current into the alternator but with the key off and no connection to the battery current doesnt/cant try to flow out of that No 1 alternator excitation terminal to the batterys positive does it (even if key was on it stil dont wanna flow to the + anyway correct) ????? ? i.e I dont understand how that diode prevents battery discharge, I just see it as preventing a running alternator (NOT an idle one) from backfeeding the coil making it run with the switch off.

Buttttt t Im not really that much of an alternator guy, Im more into DC generators so talk me through this if possible

Take care Jim

John T

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Janicholson

10-22-2007 13:31:32




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to John T, 10-21-2007 19:17:06  
SOme installations can feed back enough voltage through a (wrong) lamp to discharge the battery, but not operate the coil to keep it running. And unless we look at it ourselves, we Kind of guess what is really happening. I like Bob Ms additions. JimN



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Gene-AL

10-23-2007 18:09:05




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 Re: 3 amp diode will this protect alt??? in reply to Janicholson, 10-22-2007 13:31:32  
My take:
The GM 10SI alternator #1 terminal connects directly to one end of the alt. field winding, the other end of which is connected to the collector of an NPN transistor whose emitter is grounded. The transistor is biased "ON" by resistive path to #1 terminal. So, when + battery is applied through a lamp, resistor, or diode to #1 terminal, the Alt. field is energized at a low current. The #1 terminal is also directly connected to the diode trio + output, which substitutes its + voltage as full power to the regulator and field when the alternator starts to charge. Then the current through the lamp/resistor/diode falls to zero. Without a diode/resistor/lamp to limit current, then the ignition system will take its power directly from the diode trio + output and the engine will continue to run with the ignition switch "OFF". The diode blocks power feed from the diode trio + to the ignition, but not battery + feed to the Alt. regulator before charging starts. A resistor or lamp has to have enough resistance to prevent coil ignition and 'run-on.'

The #2 terminal supplies battery + through a very low current (high resistance) voltage divider/zener diode biasing circuit to the base of a second transistor whose collector-emitter circuit shunts base-biasing 'on' current away from the first transistor, thus lowering field current when the battery voltage rises above an amount set by the zener diode and voltage divider.

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