TRACTOR PARTS Allis Chalmers Case & David Brown Farmall & International Ferguson Ford & New Holland John Deere Massey Ferguson Massey Harris Minneapolis Moline Oliver & Cockshutt Kubota / Yanmar

TRACTOR MANUALS

Allis Chalmers	Case	Farmall IH	Ford 8N,9N,2N	Ford
Ferguson	John Deere	Massey Ferguson	Minn. Moline	Oliver

Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum

450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear!

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register

Author

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 08:45:18

Report to Moderator

Anyone else with any last advice or input about getting into the cam gear is more than welcome to chime in now. El Toro has given me lots of good input but I have yet to receive the manual so I am going to be relying heavily on all of you but as per El Toro's suggestions I will be photographing and documenting everything as I go so I know how to get it back together with as few extra pieces as possible. Should any of you have the manual I require and want to scan me the section on what I am doing I would be very appreciative.

Brian

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Owen Aaland

10-12-2007 00:43:00

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

The connecting rods should have a few thousands movement front to back. Can you move them? Does the crank move at all, even just a tiny amount?

Just because the PTO was not being used does not mean that it can be ruled out as the failure point. The unit has its own oil supply and the planetary gears are always running when the engine is running. The PTO can cause the engine not to turn but it should move a little either direction as you take up the play in the gears, couplers, and clutch cover splines.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

ejr-IA

10-11-2007 19:03:06

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

Back to the PTO I had a bearing in the planet gears seize and it killed my 560 dead in its tracks and that was with the PTO off.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brownie450

10-11-2007 18:02:54

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

Just thinking ---have you ruled out the possibility of there being a locked-up bearing in the live power or the input to the transmission? You could try blocking the clutch ahead to isolate the transmission. As to the live PTO, --that is a little harder--would probably require shifting the live power "doodad" for lack of a better term--into neutral. Don't know if all the 450's had that or not. It's on the bottom of the TA case if memory serves me correctly. A bad/ locked-up bearing in back of the clutch/ live power could act like a locked engine.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 18:21:10

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brownie450, 10-11-2007 18:02:54

Thanks for the suggestion, the tractor locked up in neutral, with the PTO turned off. Pulled it no problem in neutral with a 4X4. So I don't think it could be this. I am in the process of inspecting the crank bearings.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

BOBM25

10-11-2007 15:11:45

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

Brian, I just thought of something as I was reading the posts. I know how stupid this sounds, but its an honest-to-goodness story. My uncle was driving my Grandpa's M doing field work probably 20 years ago, he said she let out a squeal and stopped dead in her tracks, kinda like you said your 450 did. The old M wouldn't run or turn over or anything. It had been using a tremendous amount of oil, so they just figured something in the engine let loose and she tied up. It got pulled to the house were it sat for next 15 years. We decided to get the old girl up and running one winter, so we dropped the pan, removed the head and pushed all 4 pistons out the top with a hammer handle. ????? we're thinking now. So we put a new battery in it and tried to crank it over. No luck. Hooked it to the 756, drug it around trying to free up the crank, no luck. We were standing around, looking at engine, scracthing our heads, when my uncle took out his pocket knife and cut the old ratty dried out water pump belt off. Guess what? The crank spun around now. The water pump was so packed full of crud that the old wore out M couldn't turn it over. Tractor needed OH anyway.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 16:31:53

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to BOBM25, 10-11-2007 15:11:45

Thanks for the hope that it is something simpler than the alternatives. Here are a couple pics of my belt and hose setup, as far as can tell the waterpump is tied into the fan belt. It is not a seperated system on the W450.

third party image

Let me know what your thoughts are.

Brian

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 11:37:22

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

Ok I got the distributor off and the hydraulic pump, hydraulic pump moves freely and the gear is in great shape. The gear that it mates up with on the front of the block (Idler Gear??) from what I can see is in good shape too, also I do not see any chunks of metal or metal filings in there, I am going to flashlight my way in as far as I can to see what I can find. Here are some pics of the hydro pump and gears.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Janicholson

10-11-2007 12:00:49

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 11:37:22

Those look good! Try moving the visible gear with your hand. It should have just a tiny bit of motion, maybe .002-.004". If the loader is up, Mark the gear teeth in some way to see if it moved, then try putting it in 5th TA forward, and rocking it back and forth. If it has no movement, Pulling the oil pan would be next.
The discovery so far would be that you did nothing "bad" to cause it!!! JimN

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 12:09:24

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Janicholson, 10-11-2007 12:00:49

Thanks Jim,

I did move it with my hand and it did move a tiny bit, the loader is down so moving the tractor in any way is not likely to happen unless I hook up a 4x4 to it and drag it. Should I put the hydraulic pump and distributor back before I pull the pan?

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Janicholson

10-11-2007 12:21:32

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 12:09:24

No. They wil;l likely need to be off any way. Good luck. JimN

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 12:24:59

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Janicholson, 10-11-2007 12:21:32

Ok off I go to pull the pan. Will let you know how it goes.

Brian

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 13:38:16

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 12:24:59

ok, I pulled the pan, drained the oil, I found a small amount of copper filings and a little bit of cork in the oil. No chunks of metal were found in the oil. I am pretty sure I can guess where the copper came from, but the cork? Obviously it is a gasket, but which one? Anyways, that is where I currently stand, any ideas? Input?

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 16:36:10

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 13:38:16

Here are the photos of the crankshaft.

Crankshaft Front
third party image

Crankshaft Mid
third party image

Crankshaft Rear
third party image

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Janicholson

10-11-2007 15:01:50

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 13:38:16

Two directions to go:
Looking up into the bottom of the engine is it possible to see the front timing drive gear on the crankshaft snout? and on the left side front of the front cover there is a sheet metal cover with 5 or 6 bolts holding it on there could be some clear sight lines to the cam gear there.
The cork probably came from a valve cover gasket being scraped off, not to worry on it. If you have not removed the starter, do so and try to rotate the engine backwards (look at the fan to see which way)with a stout screwdriver in the flywheel teeth. If it moves at all, check the teeth on the timing gears. Good luck, JimN

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Bob M

10-11-2007 09:19:03

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

Brian - a tip:

Not certain about the 450 diesel, but for the 450 gas you need a 2-1/2" socket to remove the nut that holds the fan pulley to the front of the crankshaft. On account of it's location recessed inside the pulley the nut cannot reached with a combination wrench, pipe wrench, etc.

I wound up buying a Snap-On stamped steel truck wheel bearing socket for about $30. It worked fine, and was MUCH cheaper than a forged steel 2-1/2" socket!

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

K.B.-826

10-11-2007 15:59:15

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Bob M, 10-11-2007 09:19:03

Those truck wheel bearing sockets are a bunch stronger than you'd think. I've given them all I can with a 60" 3/4" drive breaker bar and they can take it. Putting them on the impact gun is not a good idea though.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Janicholson

10-11-2007 09:12:03

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

Removing the distributor, then the hydraulic pump, are the first items on the list.
Neither require the removal of the engine/bolster/radiator/hood/or muffler.
When pulled out, these components can show you whether there are issues with them or not.
Be careful to take note of exact positions of the rotor and mark them. an the block, or a clear diagram. If the engine is turned they will not be correct, but if it is not it is at least a "best practices tactic".
Looking at the caseih.com site at the components in the parts diagram, and printing them for use on site is needed. looking into the front cover through the hole created by removal of components might allow better understanding as well. Good luck, JimN

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Andy Martin

10-11-2007 08:52:26

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Brian Jensen, 10-11-2007 08:45:18

I haven't had time to read all your posts. Have you definitely ruled out all other possibilities like a sheared key in the hydraulic pump, etc?

It is frustrating and embarrasing to pull an engine to replace a broken crank to find out it had a bad starter solenoid instead.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Brian Jensen

10-11-2007 09:06:17

Report to Moderator

Re: 450D Day Time to check the Cam Gear! in reply to Andy Martin, 10-11-2007 08:52:26

I have tried hand cranking the engine it will not spin either direction. Trust me I wish it was as simple as a starter solenoid, I could have that replaced today as they are readily available around my neck of the woods. The circumstance with which my tractor stopped running is what indicates to El Toro and a couple others that is could be the Cam Gear, I have also heard possibly a hydraulic gear either way I am going in to the same spot, not that I am super excited about this little procedure because I am far from it. I have lots of engine experience, just nothing like this. Trust me if I didn't have to open this all up to check it, I wouldn't be.

Brian

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

[Options] [Printer Friendly] [Posting Help] [Return to Forum] [Log in to Reply]

TRACTOR PARTS	TRACTOR MANUALS

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home | Forums

Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy