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positive ground

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Jayrod

09-10-2007 20:59:22




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today i realized that the reason my headlights were draining all the power was because they were wired backwards. my uncle must have forgotten that our McCormick Deering Farmall A has a positive ground system. he wired it as if it were a negative ground system and inadverdantly hooked the lights between 2 positives, worked the lights but it sucked all the power from the generator, simply reversing the connections fixed the problem.

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skk-big red fan

09-11-2007 19:45:33




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
Power flows from a growing higher potential to a proportionally lower potential, or put another way from an increasing voltage source to a decreasing voltage source.

That which we call a positive by any other name might be a double negative; or positive.

Water flows down hill, higher potential to lower potential.

Power flows out of a generator to a load, unless you motorize the generator (turn it into a load) or run it at reduced voltage from a larger power source, electric grid, then it becomes a voltage reducer in the system. Var generator or absorber.

Lastly vars are like the foam on a beer, nobody wants the foam or to deal with it, but its all part of the experience. So enjoy. Thanks Neal E.

Electron theory, conventional electric application, AC & DC wiring not comparing apples to oranges. Black wire in 120 AC=hot (potential, but int DC wiring black is the ground. EE engineer told me once I was crazy as I was wiring up a AC duplex in a house. Theory vs practical application.

So in practice, on a tractor, consistency and polorization is the only thing important in a system with a generator. However if installing an alternator, you'd best get those diodes working in the proper direction. Neg ground alternator must be hooked up to negative ground battery and vise versa with a positive ground alternator, and yes they do make them.

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R Heath

09-11-2007 08:01:06




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
The convential electron flow theory - positive to negative - was thunked up by whoever invented electricity - Enstein, Capernecous, Isaac Newton, or someone. Hole flow theory was developed by the Navy. Now the way it might work is to envision a pipe completely full of tennis balls. Shove one more ball into the pipe and one pops out the other end. Fine theory but electrons ride the exterior of the conductor not the interior. However when the ball is fixing to pop out it leaves a hole which flows backwards, grabs a tennis ball to replace the popped ball.

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Owen Aaland

09-11-2007 17:13:34




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 Re: positive ground in reply to R Heath, 09-11-2007 08:01:06  
"Fine theory but electrons ride the exterior of the conductor not the interior."

If this is true, then a multistrand 12 gauge wire has a much greater capacity for electron flow than a single solid 12 gauge wire?



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RHeath

09-11-2007 08:06:59




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 Re: positive ground in reply to R Heath, 09-11-2007 08:01:06  
I forgot to ask John T to explain why when the electrons flow internally to the positive post why would they ever want to leave? It is magic pure and simple. It has something to do with pixie dust. Despite modern thinking electricity does not work nor does air conditioning. Alledgedly you cannot remove heat you can only put in cold. So how come if I am hot I get cold from air conditioning removing my heat. Air Conditioning doesn't work either. Another complete mystery.

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John T

09-11-2007 10:19:42




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 Re: positive ground in reply to RHeath, 09-11-2007 08:06:59  
WOOOOO O HOOOOO OOO I love these fun "tongue in cheek" chit chats

To the contrary,,,,, ,,,Theres no source of COLD... Look up in the sky n all you see is the sun providing heat n theres no big ice cube supplying cold is there. Cold is just the absence of heat....On what we call a cold day its not really cold, its just that theres not much heat in the air lol cuz of the earths tilted rotation and the sun and its heat energy location

Similar is how when we go up in elevation on a mountain it feels cold cuz theres less heat cuz theres less air molecules to trap n absorb n store the suns heat energy.

You cant create or destroy energy ONLY change its form and about all I remember from Thermodynamcis class was "heat lost = heat gained"

Sooooo oo what an AC unit does is to extract heat from the house n dump it outside, just stand outside one n feel all that hot air lol The heat lost from inside the house = the heat gained wherever it was discharged to. Similar, a refrigerator DOES NOT put cold into the box, it removes heat from it (what makes it feel colder in there)

Funnnnn nnn discussion yall take care now

PS I also believe its impossible for planes to fly, how they keep all that weight suspended in air lol John T

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John T

09-11-2007 06:52:54




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
First of all an incandescent light bulb is NOT polarity sensitive, it still draws current and will still give off light REGARDLESS of what direction the curent flows through it and regardless if its DC or AC current. Electrons passing through the filament gives off heat and light energy.

As far as current flow (the movement of negativley charged free electrons) it only happens when theres FIRST a potential voltage difference and a conductor of electrons (a load and its associated wiring) between the potential voltage difference terminals such as say the + and - terminals on a DC storage battery.

As far as current theres BOTH the movement of electrons and then there's movement of the "Holes" left behind by the vacated electrons (The Hole theory I believe its called). That might (or may further confuse lol) help a layman understand internal battery and external battery currents, cuz if what may be labeled as "conventional current" is flowing from + to -OUTSIDE the battery, then INSIDE the battery theres gotta be current flow from - to + .

As best I can recall (hey its been 40 years ago at Purdue lol) our instructors referred to + to - current flow OUTSIDE the battery as "conventional current" while current flow INSIDE the battery from - to + as "electron current" (Thats the likes repel and opposites attract stuff, - charged electrons flow away from the - terminal towards the + terminal)

A good conductor of electricity like copper has free electrons that can easily be given up in its outer orbit, while a poor conductor like glass does not have such. If the negatively charged electrons are knocked out of their orbit as current flows in one direction then what may be called a "Hole" (a vacancy) is present and while electrons flow in one direction those "Holes" (vacancies) flow in just the opposite direction.

Whewwwww wwww I had to dig deeeee eppppp p in my old brains hard drive to dig that out so nooooo ooo warranty express or implied lol

That all said a genny can still work n charge at EITHER Pos or Neg polarity provided its properly POLARIZED and dont anyone get hung up or overly confused about Pos or Neg ground cuz all that consists of is bonding a huge hunk of iron (tractors frame) to one battery post or the other, while the charging and current flow and the laws of physics and battery theory still goes on REGARDLESS of which battery post you hung some iron onto.

Forgive me being rusty on all that "conventional current" n "electron current" and "Hole Theory" stuff its just been tooooo dernnnnn nn long lol but for a continuous current to flow from the battery through an external load n return to the battery, then inside the same battery theres gotta be current flow also and one is + to - and the other - to + so all the terminology and "conventional current" and "electron current" and "hole current" is sort of how I was taught..... .

John T (Tooooo long retired EE)

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R Heath

09-11-2007 06:01:41




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
You can have two positives if the value of one of the positives is less positive than the value of the other positive thus appearing as a negative to the more positive. Additionally, positive/negative battery is a figment of imagination because elecricity is supposed to be the free flow of electrons. If this is true electrons flow from the negative post to the positive post thus you only have negative battery. Electrons are negatively charged particles. Opposites attract so if the electrons are at the positive post of the battery why would they leave where they want to be and go somewheres they don't want to be.

I hope that sufficiently explains the situation

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R Heath

09-11-2007 06:05:43




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 Re: positive ground in reply to R Heath, 09-11-2007 06:01:41  
I should have added: Thusly things that wired up as supposedly positive battery do not work. We just think they work. It is kinda like do places that you are not there really exists. How do you know these places are real if your not there to see them. If you go back to see if they do exists how do you now know the place you left exists?



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old

09-10-2007 21:39:34




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
Please explain that one. Zap-U-Trons work only with an input and out put as in + and - so how do you get what your saying



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Dave H (MI)

09-11-2007 07:09:34




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 Re: positive ground in reply to old, 09-10-2007 21:39:34  
Rich, I think he is saying that if one has a lesser value than the other then the larger will try to balance out the smaller thus there would be a flow of sorts....if I understand him right. Hopefully there is not a tractor out there somewhere waiting for me that has such a configuration. Now if someone could just explain zap-u-tron to me....it isn't in my "electronics for dummies" book....



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old

09-11-2007 12:15:18




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-11-2007 07:09:34  
Zap-U-Tron are the old navy way of saying if you put your hean in the wrong place at the right time you will find out if they are there. Sort of like grabbing a spark plug wire when the engine is running you will feel the ZAP-U-TRONs big time



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Bob

09-10-2007 23:52:10




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 SSSSSHHHHH!!!!!!!! in reply to old, 09-10-2007 21:39:34  
His Grandpa was one of the original engineers on the (DARE I mention it) ETD project.



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Andy Motteberg

09-10-2007 21:31:23




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
What do you mean by two positives?



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jonnny2006

09-10-2007 21:25:32




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 Re: positive ground in reply to Jayrod, 09-10-2007 20:59:22  
two positives????



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