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How screwed am I?

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Mike CA

09-09-2007 19:34:01




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I was removing the water jacket cover. I broke 1 bolt off at the head, and I broke one of the studs that a nut goes on.
I'm assuming this will require an easy out and a tap kit, right? And a torch to heat those puppies up before I am able to pull them out?

On a related note, the replacement gasket is only less than $3. But the shipping for that gasket is $9! third party image

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DannyTN

09-10-2007 18:13:18




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Jumping in on this topic, I broke a bolt off in the flange that holds the PTO seal on my tractor. Tried reversing drills with no help. Drilled with regular bit, used proper size easy out, and easy out broke in hole. Tried drilling it out but the bit wanders off the harder easy out and starts damage to the flange. What might work to get the broken easy out and bolt out now?



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GA Dave

09-10-2007 17:50:23




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
I'm with John M and Flashback. Centerpunch and drill. Retap. You'll need the welder down the line. You could have got it running before making sure all is clean. Once you hear it purr is the time to go into it deeper. Let's hear it run and then everyone will help on the little things. David.



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El Toro

09-10-2007 07:11:19




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Use cutting oil and plenty of it when drilling. The drill will cut better and the oil will help cool the drill too. Hal



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Frank in Ga.

09-10-2007 06:55:27




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Just wash it out with a torch , an old timer taught me that trick many years ago



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Janicholson

09-10-2007 06:26:11




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
You are not screwed.
Three elements of the situation.
Though not terriblly Full of flakes, cleaning it was a good idea (though mine)
In hind sight, the best attachment a bolt has with the outside world is when it has its head on it. So, heating, working tighter and looser one degree of motion, spraying, and shocking with tiny hammer blows is best done before turning the head off (I know this is a painful lesson, but it is normal)
This unfortunately will not be the last broken bolt. Twisted off bolts come in two flavors. Twisted off from overtightening into nice threads and having the head pull off, or having the head shear off from side force put on the shank (both of these leave the bolt loose in thethreads)
Or (worst) the threads are corroded and stuck, or crossed and jambed, or forced into the bottom of a blind hole from being too long for the female threads. The most easily removed are the first kind, Patience and time are needed for the second. Best of luck, JimN

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Bill46

09-10-2007 05:35:54




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Been there...done that. Get you a piece of 1/8" flat steel. Drill a hole in it very near the size of the bolt. Not big enough to cover the entire bolt.
Arc weld the flat steel to the bolt. Let it cool...do not cool it with water.
When it is cool, bend the steel up at say 30 degree angle so you can twist it and not kill your knuckles.
Be gentle with it and it should turn out.
The heat usally expands the bolt and when it cools it comes out easier.
Have gotten a mess of them out like this. Last ones were broken bolts in a 450D axle where the fender bolts on...that was tough...but worked.
Good luck.

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John M

09-10-2007 03:02:07




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Mike, I must appologize as I feel this is somewhat my fault for recommneding you do that. I would just buy a drill bit and tap and redo the holes that way. Again, Im sorry and it does look pretty good in there.



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Mike CA

09-10-2007 07:04:05




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to John M, 09-10-2007 03:02:07  

John M said: (quoted from post at 03:02:07 09/10/07) Mike, I must appologize as I feel this is somewhat my fault for recommneding you do that. I would just buy a drill bit and tap and redo the holes that way. Again, Im sorry and it does look pretty good in there.


No apology necessary. It could have looked hideous in there. There was no way to know. This is a good tractor, but I can't assume that everything is going to be a-ok with it. It is, afterall, 63 years old. Who knows what gremlins are hiding in it?

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Bob

09-09-2007 23:35:03




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 NOT nearly as screwed as you'll be ... in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
...AFTER trying the "easy-out".

...Bob, who says "easy outs ain't "easy"!



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Mike CA

09-09-2007 21:18:33




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Here are pics of the broke off pieces.

Here is the bolt...

third party image



And here is the stud. You can see the other stud above it. You can also see that there really isn't much crap in there at all.

third party image

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jonnny2006

09-09-2007 22:14:43




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 21:18:33  
Thats why a few days ago i was asking if anyone ever tried using the "GRABIT"....It looks like t would be pretty slick, it is on late night informicals and regular commericals. It has a drill like tip on one end and you drill a small hole in the bolt so the "GRABIT" can back it out. They showed the rocker arm on a engine that had a busted of bolt, and the guy just took the one end of his drill bit type tool and made the perfect cone in the bolt and then flipped the grabit around and backed out the bolt...I don't know how much pressure you can put on one? but a guy could always use heat and then try using the grabit. I have mine on its way...(4-6 weeks!) How come you took it off anyway?

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Hayfarmer

09-09-2007 20:44:52




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Mike, I have had good luck drilling the bolt and taping out the hole. If you drill then use and easy out, be really careful because if you put too much twist on the easy out and it breaks it becomes a bigger problem. Other guys talk about using reverse drill bits, I haven't had much luck there. I try to start drilling as near the center of the bolt as possible with a small drill then work up with larger bits, I usually have not had to heat the bolt. When you get near the size of the bolt you can sometimes chip out the sides. Not a fun job at all but also not uncommon.

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PaulW_NJ

09-09-2007 20:39:32




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Mike

Pretty screwed.

But not impossible.

I hope you are applying good penetrating oil to bolts several times over an hour or two before you try to budge them for the first time. Forget WD40.. the best I"ve found is a product called Kroil. You buy it mail order from the manufacturer, Kano Labs.

Other than valve cover and oil pan gaskets, you can make your own from sheet gasket material simply by tracing the part, or the old gasket if it is still intact. All you need are some hole punches for the holes, and an Xacto knife. Gaskets are cheap, but not always available, or have as you found, high shipping.

Getting those flush broke studs out . . . some better here than I for help on that . . . I"ve been most successful with the "welding on a washer/nut technique", but I"ve always had a stub to work with, not flush. Perhaps first place a small piece of copper sheet with a hole in it aligned with the broken stud . . . to keep the weld from sticking to the suppounding metal. Easyouts are a real risk because if one breaks off in the drilled stud you then have a much more difficlt problem that you originally had, because the ezout is a much harder steel than the bolt.

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jonnny2006

09-09-2007 22:53:20




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to PaulW_NJ, 09-09-2007 20:39:32  
I make all my valve cover gaskets.



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Wayne Henderson

09-10-2007 05:38:06




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to jonnny2006, 09-09-2007 22:53:20  
So?



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PaulW_NJ

09-09-2007 20:48:10




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to PaulW_NJ, 09-09-2007 20:39:32  
The trick is to weld a flat washer to the broken bolt first, and then weld a nut to the washer. Any chance of getting a couple quick weld contacts from the inside of the flat washer to the bolt? Then weld a nut to that. Sometimes the heat of welding on the washer/nut does most of the work in freeing it up.

If not, you may have no choice but to drill it out using successively larger bits till you get close to threads. And then try to work the rest out with a punch. Hard part for me is centerpunching the exact center before drilling.

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Mike CA

09-09-2007 20:20:27




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
Both broken studs are fluch with the block. There is nothing to grab ahold of, much less weld to.



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banjo

09-09-2007 20:40:03




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 20:20:27  
Even if it is broke off flush you can still weld it to a nut. just center the nut with a pair of pliers and weld threw the middle of the nut building it up. That is where the wire welder comes in real handy. Alot easier then trying to use a stick welder inside a small nut.

Easy outs are seldom easy. I'd rather center punch it and use a drill bit to drill most of it out.As long as you dont go too big and go real slow the tap will probably get the rest of it out.

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riverbend

09-09-2007 19:58:48




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to Mike CA, 09-09-2007 19:34:01  
This is the perfect time to buy yourself a little wire feed welder. Weld a nut on the broken bolt and turn it out while it is still warm. Then after you have a little practice, weld a nut onto the busted stud. It will come right out too.

If your budget won't afford a welder right now, check with one of your neighbors. If it will, buy one a little better than the cheapest.

Won't you need a complete gasket set ?

Greg

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flashback

09-10-2007 06:03:10




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to riverbend, 09-09-2007 19:58:48  
I guess some of these folks have unlimited funds and have all sorts of equipment. The suggestion of drilling them out and then retapping the holes is the best method even. Use new sharp drill bits and be careful not to break them. Use the biggest you can to start with, That will give you a better chance. I agree that you can make you own gasket. Buy some gasket material at a parts store or visit the motor pool.

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banjo

09-10-2007 07:23:40




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to flashback, 09-10-2007 06:03:10  
I wouldn't say unlimited funds, just been building up tools and equipment over the years. Need alot more tools myself..



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BOBM25

09-10-2007 08:47:04




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 Re: How screwed am I? in reply to banjo, 09-10-2007 07:23:40  
I agree. Not unlimited funds, but just a different allocation of funds. I don't have many "toys". My tools are my "toys". Some guys need or want boats or cars or fancy electronic stuff. I'd way rather spend my money on tools. I have friends with all that stuff and ask me why I don't get some too. They're using the same people that ask to borrow a chain saw or floor jack or something.



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