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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Diesel start on gas engines

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Dave H (MI)

09-07-2007 10:25:47




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Would anyone happen to know how to tell what engine I have in the TD-6? It is a 1956. I have the service manual for the type of engine but it references several different models. Want to make sure as I look things up that I am looking at the right paragraphs. Also, this tractor has a larger than usual 12 volt battery in it. It is clearly a positive ground system and this is confirmed by the manual.

I put the battery in the tractor today to see if it would turn over the engine. I have reason to suspect that there might be internal damage to the engine as it stopped suddenly when it was last run (with accompanying loud bang). Don't know what kind of damage, if any, and don't really care because it needs to be fixed or parted out and it is too nice to part out. Tried to start it but there was absolutely no movement of the engine. After about four attempts on the starter I smelled something, looked back and saw a little melt coming from the battery ground. Both battery leads were very hot. Disconnected those in a hurry and here I am. Don't know if battery is now ruined or the starter for that matter but could use some advice on how to proceed. Any diesel Farmall/International owners out there who could help? I will do what it takes. Thanks guys!

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Doc Larry

09-07-2007 20:35:09




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-07-2007 10:25:47  
Dave,

I'm a little confused by your positive ground. My '49 TD6 was 12v negative ground. At any rate, the starter on mine would bind up from time to time, and when that happened, I had to loosen up the starter mounting bolts to get it unbound. But sounds like you have bigger problems than that. Or, more fun ahead, if that's your perspective. I like to rebuild engines if I'm not rushed....

Larry

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Dave H (MI)

09-08-2007 06:57:47




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Doc Larry, 09-07-2007 20:35:09  
Hi Larry. I find that kinda of interesting too. I had thought the TD-6 was pretty much unchanged until they did the 61 series. Mine is the last year before they changed them. No doubt about the positive ground. The manual reprint is specific to make sure you attach the positive cable to ground. In addition, the lugs on the battery are WAY different sizes and the cable that fits the positive side is wired directly to mother earth(mover). I am like you. I really like to fix stuff if I can just get a little space to work. Some days when working on the B I would fiddle with it for 10 minutes and then walk away for 2 days frustrated. Couple of chats with my mentors here and some time to read/think and back I would go. Working up to be a very satisfying experience...for me AND the tractor!

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sflem849

09-07-2007 13:02:09




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-07-2007 10:25:47  
I think you (the original poster) have bigger problems than this, but when my MD gets stuck I can put it is fifth and rock the wheels and the will get it unstuck. This is a bit tougher with tracks :) Otherwise another popular option when the starter wont engage is to stick a flat screwdrive in the bell housing hole and turn the ring gear. The engine must stop in the same spot every time and wear the ring gear as this is the third gear.
ALSO - Don't part it out. Work up a price and I will buy it. I have an extra gas start diesel to throw in it.
Scott

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Dave H (MI)

09-07-2007 13:22:07




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to sflem849, 09-07-2007 13:02:09  
Don't worry....I won't part it out unless I have no other option. Besides, I looked long and hard for one this nice and the bad engine is just one of those fluke things that really could not be predicted. It was running when I bought it...who would have known it was going to blow up on the trailer??? BUT....food for thought...it is cheaper to ship a 1200 lb engine than a 5 ton crawler. Maybe YOU should work up a price?
Seriously...give it some thought.

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chadd

09-07-2007 12:26:51




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-07-2007 10:25:47  
According to the Aftermarket engine catalog I am looking at, The T6 used the Farmall M/ McCormick Deering W6 C-248 engine. The Early T6 Series 61 used the C-263 from the Super M, Super MTA, 400, Super W6, Super W6-TA and W-400. The Late T6 Series 61 used the C-281 from the 450. The TD-6 and TD-6A used the D-248, the TD-6 Series 61 used the D-263 and later the D-281 and lastly, the TD-6 Series 61 used the D-282 from the 560, 660, 656, and 706.

I would imagine that you have either the D-248 or the D-263. They are readily available from the wheel tractors, and most of the parts are still available as well. If not operated properly, there was the distinct possibility of cracking the complex head casting (which used 3 valves per cylinder; 1 intake, 1 exhaust, and 1 starting valve to uncover the sparkplug) The heads, from what I've heard are NOT readily available. They were excellent on fuel, though.

Did the starter make any noise like it was engaging something when you pressed the button? It is possible the starter locked in the flywheel teeth, in which case, you simply unbolt it and put it back in. More than likely though, if there was a large bang when it was parked, something catastrophic occurred in the motor and that is the problem. Next would be to try a pry bar on the ring gear or a handcrank or pipewrench on the crankshaft. You may want to consider removing the pan and/or the valve cover and see what you've got. If something is jamming it up, trying to turn it over will only wreck more usable parts. Putting some hydraulic/ automatic transmission fluid or penetrating oil in the cylinders couldn't hurt either. The starting valves must be open in order for it to reach the rings through the spark plug holes, though.

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Dave H (MI)

09-07-2007 13:18:20




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to chadd, 09-07-2007 12:26:51  
Thanks Chadd! That's the kind of good advice I only seem to get on here. I am going to start at the bottom and see if there is anything obvious going on....stray fluids in the oil, obviously bad bearings, chunks of engine in the oil pan (I HOPE that is a joke!)....and then go from there.
I'll post back with what I find but it may take a few days as I have stuff to do on the Farmall B yet also. I sure appreciate all the info!

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georgeky

09-07-2007 12:41:04




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to chadd, 09-07-2007 12:26:51  
Chadd, those C and D-263's are reffered to as C or D-264. Not being a smart alec, just didn't want Dave to be confused.



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chadd

09-07-2007 12:43:48




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to georgeky, 09-07-2007 12:41:04  
Whoops! Thanks for catching the typos. Yes, they are 264 cu. in. of displacement. That's what happens when you read too quickly!!



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georgeky

09-07-2007 12:49:32




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to chadd, 09-07-2007 12:43:48  
I get in a hurry sometimes and takes me 3 or 4 proof reads to correct all the mistakes. Don't always catch them all either.



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georgeky

09-07-2007 12:25:57




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-07-2007 10:25:47  
Dave, I was wrong. I went and looked at my 450 diesel and the number is on the left side right above the injection pump. Mine says D-281 and a 4 digit serial number after that. So just clean a little behind the injection pump. I know a little about them, but not a scholar on them. I can work on them though.



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Janicholson

09-07-2007 12:03:42




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-07-2007 10:25:47  
You probably hurt nothing. The heat of the wires indicated that the starter was not turning the enngine and thus the engine is locked (assumes neutral) If it were mine, I would pull off the oil pan and look at the bottom end to assess the connecting rods and crank. The engines are not magic, but they are pricy in rebuild costs. A different engine might be a better option. Maybe Hector Geme (sp) has some parts. The construction equipment forum may be a better source for some issues. JimN

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Dave H (MI)

09-07-2007 12:20:54




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Janicholson, 09-07-2007 12:03:42  
Thanks Jim! I know about the construction forum and actually have posted a time or two over there. They helped me find the right manuals. That forum moves a little slower than this one and I know a lot of the people here from reading posts over the years so I felt it wouldn't hurt to make a few inquiries here too. Actually, the advice you gave me is what I was looking for...how to assess the damage. If I can get a good look at the underside and see a problem, maybe I can get a feel for how expensive the repairs. If necessary this tractor can go on ebay one piece at a time which would more than compensate me for buying another one but, as you know, I like to try new things and see if I can learn something from the experience so I would like to try to fix it first. The weather should improve here tomorrow. I will try to get underneath this thing and see what is going on.

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georgeky

09-07-2007 10:32:42




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-07-2007 10:25:47  
It should say right on the the block. It will bve embossed on the right side and should have D-264 or D-281 or whatever it may be in it. Both engines are alomost identical.



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Dave H (MI)

09-07-2007 11:54:17




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 Re: Diesel start on gas engines in reply to georgeky, 09-07-2007 10:32:42  
Thanks George! There is a little too much crud on the block right now to be searching all over for the numbers, but if you are sure they are on the right side where all the gas components are located, I will get out there and scrub when the rain lets up. I found an applications chart in the engine manual which says that the 264 & 281 engines were actually used on the 61 series crawlers and that I am probably looking at an engine in the 6 or 6A series. Know anything about these?

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