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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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M engine - How would you build it?

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 07:52:35




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I'm finally to the point of completely going through one of my M's. Obviously a lot of you have been through this process and have seen different combinations, so I'm looking for some advice. The two candidates I have are a '53 Super M and a '51 M with the 5000 ft. high altitude option (X1-b). The goal is to build a solid work tractor and take advantage of modern parts and fuels to get a reasonable increase in power. I know that I can get sleeves and pistons to make the '51 have the same bore size as the super. The question is which cylinder head to go with. I haven't been able to substantiate from research if the high altitude head has smaller combustion chambers or just more dome on the piston. I haven't pulled that engine down yet to to a physical check of the chamber size. The other factor is if the ports are better designed on the super M head vs. the earlier heads. I'm thinking of using a 450 camshaft to help with the power increase but not sure what would be the best intake and carb to use.

What would you do?

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Rootsy

08-09-2007 12:21:13




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 07:52:35  
Forget all about static compression ratio.. throw it right out the window...
Dynamic CR (cylinder pressure) is a better means for measuring an engine and looking at what it'll require for fuel. This is dependent upon intake valve closing relative to piston position.
Among other factors are quench distance, combustion chamber shape as well as piston crown shape. All of these influence flame propogation within the combustion chamber.
The amount of time, as stated above that the mixture is under pressure also plays a factor because as a gas is compressed it heats up. If heated to a point near it's ignition point you'll likely run into detonation issues if you have a non homogeneous mixture occuring or any hot spots due to sharp edges, etc in the combustion chamber or on the piston crown.

Keep a turbulent mixture, keep it from stagnating, use good geometry within the engine and keep the cylinder pressures in check and you'll be ok....

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ChadS

08-09-2007 07:40:18




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 07:52:35  
281ci, 4.125 bore. 72 hp at 540 with a 8060 head and run on 87 pump gas all day long under a heavy load. Step up to a 450 gas head and be in the low to mid 80s and still run on pump gas, 89 octane to be exact. Now its not a stock set up Im talking about, but, its a stock bore for a 281, and either a 8060 head or a 450 gas head. It still use a 6 volt battery to fire it up. We call this our plow day special engine. Its how I built mine, and very happy with it. ChadS

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the tractor vet

08-08-2007 08:54:46




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 07:52:35  
If ya want the most power then i would build the S/M and make it a 4 1/8th bore with a set of high alt. pistons with the stock S/M head and the 450 cam and a 450 manifold ,carb and dist. As for getting the most out of TODAY's fuels thats a joke. as you will never equal in todays fuels as what the OLD fuels gave , as i have gone over this many times before . Before 1975 when unleaded gas was brought out plain old reg gas at any gas station was 95 octain and hightest was 100 plus and real cheap gas was around 92-93 and todays best is 93 and cut with alkehol just how do you figure to get the most. Over half the problems tryen to run old gas tractors all comes back to fuel problems . And just wait till the problems start rollen in with the older diesels with the new diesel fuel like the last round that we went thru and it will not matter if ya have a rotary or plunger style pump . So when ya start uppen the comp. ya have to up the grade of fuel and watch the amount of ing. timing . The old sayen is if your going to play your going to pay. Back about 7-8 years ago i did up my one buddys gradfathers S/MTA with 8000 ft. pistons and the 450 cam a 450 head the carb and built his dist. to get the most with out a melt down we added the 450 manifold and it will flat up and run BUT we run it like all the rest of the gas tractors on 93 octain , now this tractor gets worked everyday doing what ever is needed and grinds feed twice a week for the cows .

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troy8403

10-11-2007 17:58:00




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 08:54:46  
Iam building a super m for anitque class pulling. how can i get the most power out of it with out increasing rpms? Can i get firecrater pistons for a s/m or is the step head a better piston that is in motor already?



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markloff

08-08-2007 15:47:54




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 08:54:46  
What was the 70 octane farm gas used in then? I always thought this was what was used in tractors in the late forties and early fifties gas tractors. That's is why the compression was around 6 to 1 give or take.

Mark



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NDS

08-09-2007 09:42:11




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to markloff, 08-08-2007 15:47:54  
Do not know octane but fuel distribiters in our area dropped old type distillate about 1950 and started supplying what they called "hot fuel" and after that we quit using gasoline for starting and used the hot fuel 100%. On gasoline tractors we still used regular gasoline though.



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City-Boy McCoy

08-08-2007 14:20:44




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 08:54:46  
Vet: There are two common types of octane measurement in the U.S. The oldest is the RESEARCH OCTANE NUMBER, or RON. That is what we had prior to unleaded for automotive type gasoline. Then, there is the MOTOR OCTANE NUMBER measurement, or MON, also known as "the aviation lean octane rating". Today, we use both measurements combined (R+M/2) for automotive gasoline octane ratings. Normally this formula will be displayed somewhere on gas pumps. Intrepretation: an octane rating of 87 today using the R+M/2 formula, would have a rating of about 92 by the RON formula method of measurement we used back in the 50's and 60's. In Europe and Australia, they still use the RON formula and their unleaded regular has a rating of 95, slightly better than our regular (92) here. So, 87 is not as bad as it sounds when you take into account we are using a different formula to calculate octane ratings than what was used in the 50's and 60's. I'm not saying today's gasoline is as good, I'm just saying it is not as bad as it sounds, either. mike durhan

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the tractor vet

08-08-2007 19:52:28




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 08-08-2007 14:20:44  
Now you may think i am a spring chicken But i have been around for a couple days and i know just a littel bit about gas alkehol and nitro fuels , And when i pull and engine down and see damage to pistons i can tell ya what cause it or if and engione comes unglued i can look at the pices and parts and tell ya what let go first . Now as far as the gas of today this 87 octain is not what ya want to running in tractors and if i had a way of showen ya just what it will do to a piston i would as the piston in question is setting next to me and this is not the first one of them . And like i said before i have spent the money plus the trip to the LAB to have the gas tested and here again if i had a way to post the LAB results on the burn of 87 octain gas and just how hot it goes above what is as i would say safe for a tractor piston OF TODAY as the pistons that you get today are NOT of the FORGED design they are just a plain old cheap cast piston and a cast piston can not get ride of the heat like the old FORGED piston can . AND when the tractors were new they came with FORGED pistons . THe 87 octain is made to burn extra hot and fast . Heck way back in the late 50's the old gas powered semi's ran HIGH TEST and they were only 7-7.5 to 1 comp . While i had the shop open i saw a lot of gas tractors with problems as around here there are still alot of old gassers still in the field and MOST of them it was fuel related problems . SOOOOO we started doing some seirous work on tryen to get them to operate wright . Lots of the problems were because of one fuel supplyer as he would haul a load of diesel or home heating oil in the morning and that afternoon he would load the tank with gas ontop of what ever was left in the tank and hose and make his rounds . One day i had a small farmer bring his Ford 641 in for a tune up , well as i was bringing his tractor into the shop it ran out of gas , so being the nice guy that at times i can be i put ten gallon in it well what i had there was hightest did the major tune up including valve adjustment rebuild the carb checked the dist out on the strobe and set the points while on the strobe had it running like a swiss watch . He stops by that evening and pays his bill and drives the tractor home about two miles , two days later he is up at the shop just motheren me because his tractor will not start so we drive down to his place and yep it will not start pull the plugs out and they look like they were dipped in old motor oil . So go to the truck get a new set of plugs and install them , the tractor started real hard and smoked as bad as my old 450 D under load . Thought that maybe the float on the carb may have stuck nope thats not it . Well we got talken and questioned him as what all he did after he picked up the tractor . Welll from the time that he picked it up he ran it TILL it ran out of fuel the 10 that i put in , he then went to HIS tank and filled it up and that is when his problems started . SO we go to his tank and get a coffee can and fill it up half way set it out in the middel of the yard and throw a match into it . NOw if that had been good gas what do you think SHOULD have happened . Well the match went out it took a propane tourch to get this stuff to lite and it burned like a smudgpot . This was one of the problems that we had to contend with then we also found out that the 93 octain ran alot better in the rest of the gassers that WORKED for a living less plug problems ran cooler pulled better . Then ya get into the later gassers and here one SHOULD READ THE OPERATOR manual as to FUEL requirements for said tractor . There is a 460 gasser that has been on the same farm since new and runs everyday if ya run 93 octain gas in it , put 87 in it and it will haul the spreader down the field BUT it will not bring it back up with half a load on it in soft fields she will start seezen pistons and just plum stop till she cools down put the 93 in her and ya can put the 4 bottoms on her and work her all day and into the night . That was one of them jobs that had alot to do with the lack of hair on top of my head . The local I H store head wrench gave up on tryen to make that tractor run , then John Boy came to me and it took me a couple days to figure that one out . Like i said we still have a lot of old M's thru 806 gasser running over here . And ya have to keep in mind the big companys don't care about the littel guy or his problems with there products as thay got your money anyway . And gas is for cars not tractors . So if ya doubt me on this then why don't you buy a brand new 1 gallon gas can fill it with your 87 octain gas and hand deliver it to a indepedent lab along with about 7-800 buck and have it tested and see what happens in the burn and have the chemist explain to you what is going on and why . Lot of differance between running a car down the road at highway speeds then DRAGGEN SOME PICE OF EQUIPMENT down the field . And ya also have to take into account that this stuff is how old and how many times it has had the head milled down or the deck of the block milled then are you 100% sure that the comp. distance on that piston is correct or are you sure that your dist is working the way it should and what is the total advance on it has it been change is it the correct dist. for that engine ? Just how many of you have or know how to run a dist. strobe or change the curve on a dist . How many of ya just stuff a set of points in and never check timing ? How many time on here have you seen where guys are going to this or that and realy have know idea what they are doing but there going to dive in head first then they are back on here wanting to get the spec's as they don't even have a book . How many have had any kind of tech schooling , now i know there are a lot of guys that may be collage smart and now want to play they may have a masters in there field well maybe i never went to collage but with over 44 years of twisten wrenches building engines from mild to wild in gas and diesel i can hold my owen with the best. So as far as the school of hard knocks i have a Phd. along with a bunch of paper to cover a couple walls from Ford and Chry. and all that i have learned about I H's has come the hard way by doing it and figuren it out along with having the tools and equipment to work with.

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City-Boy McCoy

08-09-2007 15:44:46




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 19:52:28  
I know you ain't no Spring Chicken. You are more of an old Leghorn Rooster, I expect. I told you I was not arguing with you; I'm sure you are right about everything you ever say. I was just pointing out that 87 today is not like 87 would have been by 1970 methods of calculating octane ratings. mike



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georgeky

08-08-2007 20:36:17




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 19:52:28  
Wow Vet, that was a long one. I am not doughting you or your experience one bit, but I have ran the cheap stuff for years and no problems at all from it. Back in the 60's and 70's we ran regular in them then. I have worked these old gals hard too. As of right now one M was overhauled in 90, one in 94 and both the C and SC in 96 or 97. I have worked all 4 of them a bunch and no problems at all yet. None of them have any blow by or smoke out the top. I do have to add oil to dads old M because of a leaking rear seal. He let it sit fot 6 or 7 years before giving it to me. The other 3 are good to go between oil changes. Now you may have something about those new pistons I don't know as I keep reusing my old ones. I have 3 or 4 sets of new ones sitting in the box in the shop that came with the new sleeves. I am not using them as much as I once did, but I imagine I will keep burning the cheap stuff in them.

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the tractor vet

08-09-2007 07:07:17




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 20:36:17  
Well George back in the 60's and 70's till 75-76reg gas was 95 RMI octain and as we moved on from reg. leaded to unleaded and lower comp. backed off cam timing and ing. timing and on to fuel injection the levels dropped off . Clevit even did up a couple pages on this in one of there high po parts catologe tellen engine builder what pistons to order for what applacation and just how far we could go on comp. for the pump gas of today and they also made a big deal about the NEW and improved pistons as they were swinging away from the forged piston to the new silaca carbide castalum. and how they differed from the forged on heat dispersal . And at that time they were tellen us engine builder that for street use on at the time a 9to 1 was as high as we could go on the pump gas and at that time it was 95 octain and also made statement on the amount of timing on the top end . Now this was for car light truck engine building . Now when it comes to building a work engine ya take everything that you know about that and just throw it out the winder and start for the bottom and learn everyting over . The use of the 87 in the older tractors like in the letter seires and into the 400's-450 ya you can run it and get away with it but when ya get up in comp. with thew bigger pistons and smaller chamber heads like on the 400-450 with the BIG pistons that is when you will start seeing higher heat and detonation if that tractor still has the OLD advance curve and not the later curve as there was a kit that chaned from the old curve of the OLDER letter seires and this kit came around as they got away from the flat tops to the fire craters and domed pistons . It chopped 10-12 degrees off the topend of the curve.

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 10:21:35




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 08:54:46  
tractor vet,
How much quench clearance are you building in these engines? Also, what all kind of head gaskets are available? Can you get steel shim and composition or is there just one kind? What compressed thickness do you get out them?

I was also going to post and see if anyone has any been using the ULSD in the older diesels and if there were any consequences. I get the impression you've seen problems with it.

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the tractor vet

08-08-2007 12:32:48




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 10:21:35  
well to be honsethere i never relay checked how thick the head gskt. was as when building a working engine i know that the stock parts will work , the only thing i did when doing this was to dry fit the head on the block and did check to make sure that the valves cleared the pistons with out the head gskt. and they did and i was a happy camper so we stuff her back together and called it good and it is still running today so guess thats good enough. As for the fuel we have not had any as of yet on the farm and i am not sure what they are sellen around here as i have not been driven my Dodge as i am to lazy to get under it and drop the fuel tank for the third time to replace lines and also have a ft. wheel bearing out of it . The newer sysstems on the later ones will fair better then the rotary or plunger pumps will . Back when they made the first change i was getting tired or driven over to the pump shop as it was take one over and bring one back and sometimes it was three or four pumps at a time . No wonder my pump man has a nice Beechcraft Turbo Baron and can afford to go play when ever he feels like it.

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 18:43:49




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 12:32:48  
Silly me, and here I thought only doctors bought Barons.

Seriously, have you done much with propane in modified engines? It has high octane rating, somewhere north of 100, or so I've been told.



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the tractor vet

08-08-2007 20:02:28




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 18:43:49  
We did do a littel playen with it but propane is not common around here . If we were building a pullen engine to run on gas it was usualy up in the 12-13 to 1 range and needed something a bit better to feed on and we would feed it VP C12 or C14. Yea my pump man has a nice Beechcraft baron benn up a couple times with him . He and i had to run down to a fram on a service call on one pump that just was not wright and he and i flew down in his buddys Piper 180 as the farm that we needed to go to was almost at the end of the runway and across the road from the airport , threw a hand full of wrenches in a cardboard box and a new pump and instead of a two and half hour drive by pickup it was a thiry min flight . I keep tryen to get THE RED to let me barrow his credit card and get a nice littel LEAR then i could just bop around fixen tractors anywhere.

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ChadS

08-09-2007 08:06:36




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 20:02:28  
Vet, you gotta try some E85 in replace of the C-12-16 in the high compression Tractor engines. They run cooler, they make more power, and the cost to operate is bout half VS race fuels. Id like to share some research we have done with E85 and what we have found in looking for fuels. ChadS



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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 20:35:03




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 20:02:28  
Yeah, that high you're definately in the race fuel category. I'm not building anywhere near that extreme. I have two propane tanks in the yard and it it's easy to get around here so I've thought about it.
You might like a Caravan with a PT-6. You could drop into any old corn field and throw all kinds of junk in the back!



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georgeky

08-08-2007 09:05:22




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 08:54:46  
Vet, my old M's with 4 inch 8000 foot pistons will run my NH grinder mixer at half throttle as fast as you can shovel corn. I think we determined the last time we had this discussion that one of mine does have a 400 carb on it. It seems to have just as much power as my buddy Brads SMTA. I think you are absolutely right about fuel problems to come.



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the tractor vet

08-08-2007 12:59:26




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 09:05:22  
Well George Vernon's S/MTA will knock down over 93 hp on the dyno at rated RPM and will run wright with Eugene's 706 and on the 352 N H grinder she will run eared corn thru the small screen like you said as fast as ya can shovel . Before we put the rebuild to her she was maken over 75 Hp and it had enough to blow the gear box on the I H corn chopper when Vernon tryed to show off by choppen in second never missed a beat but the gear box looked like someone stuff a handgernade in it and pulled the pin. Even sounded like it . Oh well we needed a new chopper anyhow .

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georgeky

08-08-2007 14:47:18




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to the tractor vet, 08-08-2007 12:59:26  
Vet, I have not had either of my M's on a Dyno, but I am certain that neither will clock anywhere near that. We did put Brads SMTA on one after I finished it and it was turning in the 70+ range. He had it hooked to an irrigation pump with three guns and it would shoot the water. I used it a while hooked to a 10 foot JD heavy disk and it didn't really seem to be much stronger than my old M hooked to the same Disk. Looks like 90+ HP would gut the old gal, but I don't know as I never had one turning that much. How much can I get out of the 450 diesel? I would like to have at least 70 out of it if possible for as little money as I can get by with.

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mark

08-08-2007 16:27:42




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 14:47:18  
george,

Psssst....hey...come over here....shhh, you know, I'd like to see an M pull 90 horses with factory parts short of a blower..... .and high RPM's.



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the tractor vet

08-08-2007 20:24:25




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to mark, 08-08-2007 16:27:42  
Well Mark i can tell ya that if ya build one the way we did it is not that hard to get them in the 90+ range and at factory set Plus 10% -15%. oR HOW ABOUT A 706 GASSER running 94 hp. on factory parts . Take a S/M - 450 and swap out the pistons and install a set of 8000 ft. high alt. pistons a littel dist work a 450 intake And just do a good fit up or BLUEPRINT on the engine build a littel carb work and see just where your at. There is a huge differance between firecraters and High alt. Let me put it this way to ya a good M-SM or even a S/MTA over here has all it wants with a 3x14 plow behind it some may pull 3x16's if they are real good in second in sod Vernon's S/MTA will haul 4X16 's in third in sod at 8-10 inches deep and never need the T/A if it hit a tough spot it just opens the govener up a bit more . My owen S/MTA has M&W flat tops and the best i can get out of her is 60 Billy the one neighbor has two S/MTA's that he farms about 200 acres with and the one he bouth NEW just out of highschool has eveything factory stock and we did his overhaul about 20 years ago with all factory STOCk parts as he did not want to go with the Overbore or the firecrater pistons and his new S/MTA has the overbore with fire crater and the differance between the three is my mta will flat run away from the old one and his new one will out pull mine as we have had all three out in the same field pullen the same kind of plows then here come Vernon pullen 4x16's and plum blows us all out of the water at a gear higher and a bottom more. And when standing next to all of them in the same field at the same time you can hear the differance between the engines .

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georgeky

08-08-2007 17:09:31




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to mark, 08-08-2007 16:27:42  
I had that SMTA turning 2700 RPMs and it still didn't seem much stronger than my M. Just faster on the road. It was quite scarey to drive at that speed. That old tractor burned up in a warehouse fire in Florence, Ky. I am sure with the money and work 90 is possible on them. They claim to be getting 100 out of lawn mowers set up for pulling, so anything is possible.



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georgeky

08-08-2007 08:42:54




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 07:52:35  
I would just go with a 8000 foot over bore piston and sleeve kit if it were mine. I have two with these in them and both have plenty of power for a working M. One has 8000 foot M&W Add-Powr pistons and the other has the IH Firecraters in it. I use them both on the farm and can pull a 15 batwing heavy duty bush hog, 3 bottom plow, 10 foot heavy disk, and lots of tools with both. I have also used the 48 to pull with and it has never lacked for power. If your M has the 8060 head that is the high compression M head. Just depends on how hot a tractor you waqnt. The 450 cam, carb and head will increase power and fuel economy.

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 10:28:01




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 08:42:54  
I'll have to check the head casting # again. Do you think it would be worth pursuing a 450 head over a Super M head? I've seen them advertised for pullers for all kinds of money. Could you tell much difference in quality between the M&W and the IH pistons?



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georgeky

08-08-2007 10:57:48




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 10:28:01  
The difference in heads is not woth the price to me as my heads are good. Now if you have to buy one anyhow, then you may consider the 400/450 head. I sold one while back for 500 bucks, but have seen them advertised for more. Either of the pistons are top notch, but no longer available new. What are you planning to do with this tractor? I would think you can get enough power from that Super to do whatever you need to do. They were no slouch to start with.

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 18:51:56




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 10:57:48  
Do you know anything about the pistons in the kits advertised on this site? I'll have to check again, but I thought I found a good IH part number for pistons though I'm sure they'd cost an arm and a leg.
I'm just building a good solid work tractor, a little bit of everything for it to do. I just want to take advantage of everything that has been figured out over the last 50 years and get the most out of the fuel burned.

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georgeky

08-08-2007 19:20:10




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 18:51:56  
They do sell a set of high altitude pistons, but they are not made by IH anymore.There would be a good IH part number I think, but no Firecrater brand pistons that I know of. The ones you can get will be the equivalent and just as good I would suspect. I think just going with the overbore high altitude dome pistons will get you plenty of power for any chore you may want to do. The Super or straight M either will pull the 3 bottom plow in most cases as traction will be a bigger issue than power. These are real work horse tractors. I am fairly sure you can get enough power to do what you want by this. I have worked both my old M's very hard over the years and can't complain about them one bit. The 1950 was used to pick corn with a 2 row mounted NI picker and never lacked for power. Your Super M can be taken to 450 status quite easily. Like has been said it just depends on how much you want to spend and how much power you think you need.

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 19:56:54




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 19:20:10  
I've worked my '52 M pretty hard, toughest is pulling 3 bottoms through this black clay. It's just tired; a little blue smoke now and then and plenty of blow-by. The sheet metal is quite good though and I'm thinking about it for a restoration candidate. I'll keep it running while I build on of the other two. I wouldn't be surprised if IH never did actually make the pistons themselves.
Do you happen to know what kind of rings you are using? I suspect the originals were chrome faced but I've seen adds for moly faced rings. I've had good luck with moly rings in auto applications. They don't like dirt though.

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georgeky

08-08-2007 20:19:23




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 19:56:54  
Don't remember what type of rings I put in there last. The 48 got a overhaul in 94 and the 50 got one in 90, just can't remember. IH did make their own pistons back in the day. I have two sets of them and IH is clearly stamped right on them along with the part number. One set in a 1953 SC and one in my 50 M. I also have a set of 450 IH Firecraters in a 400 that I have sold.



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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 20:51:02




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 20:19:23  
Do you know where online I might find pictures of the M&W and the Fire-crater pistons? I'm curious about how the tops are configured.



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georgeky

08-08-2007 22:36:46




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to CenTexFarmall, 08-08-2007 20:51:02  
Send me an email and I will send pics of the Firecraters. I don't have a set of M&W's I can take pics of, but they are a lot alike. It will be tomorrow on the pics.



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mark

08-08-2007 09:37:10




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 08:42:54  
Fellers,

I have a question concerning these 'high compression' set ups. First, just how high is the compression? If it is below 8:1, I find it hard to believe you need hi octane gas. I also find it hard to believe you are operating at anything over 8:1 at the most, unless you are using some kind of tricked out after market puller heads and pistons. These old tractors, even with high altitude pistons/heads etc., were designed to run on low octane gas from the get go and hi-octane pump gas didn't become regularly available until the very late 50's when Chevy and Chrysler pushed compression ratios over 9:1. The so called good gasolines hit the pumps in the 60's when compression ratios went to 10 and above. If you feel you have to have high octane gas, go down to the local airport and buy 100 octane Av gas. They have it in low lead and no lead versions. Hardened valve seats and unleaded gas are the best things that ever happened to internal combustion engines. High octane is great if you have high compression to get the good out of it....any of these farmall engines pushing 9:1 or above?

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Janicholson

08-08-2007 11:18:01




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to mark, 08-08-2007 09:37:10  
One issue not well discussed yet is duration of peak mean effective pressure. The slow farm tractor is going to have maybe three times as much actual time go by with the pressures as high as they will go. Not only does this lead to detonation, but substantial heat transfer to the exposed combustion surfacs near 3 to 8 degrees after TDC. A auto engine cranking 3 to 4K RPM will have far fewer issues there. I do believe the fuels are way better off with no lead not only for humans, but for engine life and spark plug longivity. Auto engines use vacuum retard/advance controls to make modest fuels work (or today electronic fuel and spark control. The highest efficiency is obtained at the exact point of the beginning of detonation, Just a tiny bit is perfect. Sensors on new engines do this per cylinder in some cases to optimize spark and mix. On an M ---- sorry. JimN

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 18:40:44




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to Janicholson, 08-08-2007 11:18:01  
This is a good point to bring up. The M's relatively good rod ratio would be a factor too, I think.
You know, you can add a knock sensor to any engine with a little engineering. I could be used as a tuning aid. You would just have to determine if the gear driven cam and valve train noise would agitate it.



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georgeky

08-08-2007 11:11:57




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to mark, 08-08-2007 09:37:10  
Hi Mark. They are no where near 8:1. Factory the M is less than 6:1 and 400/450 is just over 6:1 Now the high altitude pistons will increase that some, but I wouldn't think anywhere near 8:1. As you say if it gets that high it would ping to beat the band on this green gas. I run the cheapest 87 octane gas I can get in all my tractors and have had no problems at all with it. I did have to install hardened valve seats in all of them after the demise of regular gas. In a year all my seats were toast with the unleaded. I even tried the lead additives and just waisted my money on it as it did not protect the valve seats.

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mark

08-08-2007 14:04:11




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to georgeky, 08-08-2007 11:11:57  
George,

EXACTLY! It's always good to see reason employed..LOL!

You can take most engine and a pocketful of Franklins and turn it into a form of a dragster. But, I don't think Farmall was making any Rat Motors back in the 50's..hehe!

As for no-lead Av gas...yep, it's been out there for some time. Dad runs the low lead in the Cub and Taylorcraft, no lead in the 150 since it's overhaul and hardened seats were installed. But, if it weren't for the valve seats.....87 pump gas would do fine in the Cub and T-Craft.

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CenTexFarmall

08-08-2007 10:42:07




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 Re: M engine - How would you build it? in reply to mark, 08-08-2007 09:37:10  
I tried to find out the same thing a few weeks ago but without much success. I think you have to be a little more conservative with CR on a tractor vs. a car; the tractor spends a lot of time at or near WOT under a heavy load (plowing) compared to . Also with relatively large cylinders and short cam timing, the dynamic CR ends up higher on a tractor. Prop plane engines actually have similarly convervative CR and if you think about it have a similar mission. They run low RPM at a high load and throttle setting. I haven't heard about "no lead" avgas, but it's been a few years since I drove one of those things.

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