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OT-Truck Charging System

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Michael Sheik

11-15-2006 04:55:07




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I have a 1955 Ford F-600 that I am restoring and intend to build a flatbed with round bale arms so I can use to move hay at the farm. It will be hydraulic operated and wanted to install a 12V hydraulic power pack. The old truck is a 6V Pos. ground system and can't decide what will work. One option is to install a 12V one wire alternator and plumb into a 12V battery. This system would be totally isolated from the 6V system. Main reason to isolate is that all guages, lights,etc. are 6V and not wanting to burn anything up. Big problem with this option is lack of space to install alternator. Another option is to somehow plumb into the existing generator and wire it to a 12V battery so that it would charge that at 12V but still leave the 6V charging the trucks battery. Either way you go here both systems must be isolated from each other. I think the generator charges at 12V on these old things and is reduced to 6V by an external regulator.
Got to be some good vehicle electricians on here with advice!

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in sticks

11-15-2006 18:10:08




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
another way you could do this is run hyd pump from front of crank shaft,like some systems on tractors



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Bob M

11-15-2006 07:12:09




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
Michael - Your best bet is to locate a transmission PTO and hydraulic pump for your truck. It’ll be the fastest cycling and most trouble-free way to run your bale hoist.

However if you will be using the 12 volt hydraulic power pack here’s a few thoughts.

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Forget about using the 6 volt generator to run the hoist! The stock 6 volt generator is likely rated for 35 amps or so max (approx 250 watts). It’s working close to it’s limit just firing the ignition and keeping the battery charged. Even by bumping it to 12 volts the old generator will lack the power required to run the hydraulic power pack for your bale lift.

Likewise forget about using multiple batteries with a series-parallel switch, etc. 12 volt/6 volt S-P switches are expensive (when you can find one…), are troublesome to wire and tend to have reliability issues.

My recommendation then is to convert the truck to 12 volt with an alternator. Having converted several myself over the years below are a few tip:

1 – Use the highest output alternator you can fit. Suggest a minimum of 60 amps – 90 to 100+ amps is preferred – especially if you plan to cycle the hydraulic pump more than once every 5 minutes or so.

2 – Forget about a 1-wire alternator! These tend to have issues with shutdown current leakage (ie. dead battery if the vehicle sits idle very long). They also have startup “turn on” problems. A standard 3-wire alternator – while requiring a few more feet of wire to install – do not have these problems. Also 3-wire alternators are cheaper to buy!

3 – Recommend bypassing the existing dashboard ammeter – the ammeter and wiring are inadequate for the high current from an alternator. Instead run a heavy wire (#8 or #6 recommended) direct from the alternator output stud to the + side of the battery or starter solenoid. Install a dash-mounted voltmeter to monitor the electrical system.

4 – Converting the rest of the electrical system to 12 volt is not difficult. You’ll need to:

-Install a ballast resister in series with the coil primary -Swap out all light bulbs (don’t forget the instrument panel lamps!). -If the dash gages are mechanical you need do nothing. If they are thermal/electric type (gage hands move slowly into position when the key is turned on) they have their own internal regulator – they should work fine on 12 volts. However if you are concerned you can install a “gage dropping resistor” (try JC Whitney) in series with the gage feed. -If you have an electric 2 speed the differential shifter will work fine on 12 volts (will actually shift BETTER than it does on 6 volts!). But you should add a dropping resistor in series with the speedometer shifter to keep the shifter coil from overheating. - Do nothing with heater motor and wiper motor (if electric wipers). These will work fine as if you don’t run them on their highest speed setting.
-And of course you’ll need to install the battery with the negative terminal grounded (VERY important!)

5 – Use a battery with the largest CCA rating you can afford. Or better yet install (2) high CCA batteries connected in parallel.

----

Good luck, and hope something here helps...

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Bob

11-15-2006 07:05:44




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 Another option... in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
third party image

How about an engine-driven pump with an electric clutch? (OOOPS... no "12-Volts" for the clutch, shucks... unless you could find a 6-Volt version...)

Link



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Allan In NE

11-15-2006 06:18:54




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
Leave the old truck alone and find yourself a bale mover. :>)

Allan



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Michael Sheik

11-15-2006 06:36:08




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Allan In NE, 11-15-2006 06:18:54  
Not an option! We're going for cool and functionality



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IaGary

11-15-2006 05:36:32




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
Michael

Why not put on a transmission PTO and pump and save the wiring hassel.

The pto may be hard to find for that truck,but the pump can be found in any truck salvage yard.

Could also check into a power steering pump to power your hydraulics.Add an extra reservoir under the hood to supply more oil.

Just some other ideas.

If you already have the 12 volt pump forget every thing I have said.

Gary

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Michael Sheik

11-15-2006 06:26:33




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to IaGary, 11-15-2006 05:36:32  
Actually, Gary, I considered that option as the PTO unit is already on the truck and I have a PTO pump. Thing I didn't like about this option is that having PTO engaged and moving vehicle is hard on the tranny isn't it? I assumed a operator would have to put vehicle in position, place in neutral, engage PTO, operate bale forks, disengage PTO and drive. Couldn't work hydraulics on the fly! Also, would have to plumb in valve assemble in the cab where with 12V all I would need is the remote switch in cab.
I know lots cheaper though.
Am I wrong about assumptions above?

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Janicholson

11-15-2006 07:00:22




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 06:26:33  
If you put a control valve in the system with a open center (as would be the case on a belly pump used for two way on a H) the pump could be left running during all vehicle operation except when the clutch is pushed in. This would allow on the fly operation.
I would use a under the vehicle valve with a 5/16 push pull cable to operate it. It is much simpler than messing with a seperate electrical sys. and more powerful and not prone to heating with sevier use on heavy bales. Even a 95 amp delco would need a great 2 belt drive to pull enough power. JimN

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Michael Sheik

11-15-2006 07:10:14




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Janicholson, 11-15-2006 07:00:22  
So I hear you saying you can have the PTO engaged and the truck in gear and moving at the same time? I figured that would tear up the tranny.



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Dave Sherburne NY

11-15-2006 10:53:29




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 07:10:14  
It will take out the seal on the pto and all your tranny oil will run out. Been there done that



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Janicholson

11-15-2006 11:19:14




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Dave Sherburne NY, 11-15-2006 10:53:29  
A out of ballance drive shaft will do that, but other than that the seal is no different than any other trans seal and bearing. They work well, JimN



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Janicholson

11-15-2006 07:23:42




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 07:10:14  
No it does not, it is a pto from the trans lay shaft which engages like a sliding gear normally does It cannot be shifted into and out of gear without stopping, but once it is in gear, it will drive the pump when ever the tranny input shaft is turning. (If this wern't the case a dump truck driver would not be able to drive forward while tipping the load higher to spread gravel) It is (with an open center valv,e and the pump running during field operations) the same as operating a letter series belly pump. For operating down the road, I would shut off the PTO to reduce wear and tear on the shafts and pump, and to reduce the chance that operator error would dump the load by moving the wrong lever(never happens), but only because it is conservative to do so. JimN

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Bob

11-15-2006 06:59:40




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 06:26:33  
Driving the truck with the PTO engaged is not "hard on the tranny".

The only problem is, if the engine gets "over-revved", the wimpy PTO shaft may get to whipping around and come apart.

A well-designed drive setup will help with this, or, even better, if you can get a PTO for that tranny that will accept a "face-mount" hydraulic pump, so there' no driveshaft involved.



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silly ole dawg

11-15-2006 05:35:33




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
Well, i grabbed the old service manual on yer truck from the dealer's archives..... .....

Imo, if you want to keep 6v to yer gauges you will need to rewire em all as neg ground and use a dropping resistor for the things ya wanna keep 6v. then you are carrying 1 battery, a 12v alt, and all of the juice youll ever need.



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Bob

11-15-2006 06:00:23




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to silly ole dawg, 11-15-2006 05:35:33  
Converting to 12-Volts is EASY.

Likely, the gauges are the "thermal" type, and don't care if they are fed (+) or (-) ground.

Rather than using a resistor to power the gauges, I use a simple 6-Volt "3-terminal regulator", which is the size of your thumbnail, mounted on a little scrap of aluminum, as a heat sink.

Install a 12-Volt alternator, use a resistor with the coil, or replace it with a 12-Volt unit, change out the light bulbs, and heater motor.
Here's a simple way to connect up an alternator:

Third Party Image


Or, another, more $$$, more complicated option is to use the series-parallel setup mentioned by the other poster.

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teddy52food

11-15-2006 05:35:06




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to Michael Sheik, 11-15-2006 04:55:07  
Get a series / parallel switch.If you can figure out how to wire it, you can use 2 6v batteries for the 12v & still keep the truck system 6v. Maybe John T or someone else can help?



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karl f

11-15-2006 16:35:23




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to teddy52food, 11-15-2006 05:35:06  
could wire it like a green one 730 diesel...they used 4 6v in 2 12 v banks to make 24v starting and charging but retained 12v lighting and other accessories. only in your case you"d use 2 banks of six volts to make 12...then you are dealing with B- and B+ at the half-voltage...and need to balance the load between the half voltage banks... nice and complicated. double pole switches throughout, lots of fun!
-karl f

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Michael Sheik

11-15-2006 06:44:04




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 Re: OT-Truck Charging System in reply to teddy52food, 11-15-2006 05:35:06  
Anyone want to draw a picture how one would wire this?



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