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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!!

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Gebhardt

11-04-2006 16:11:54




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I've been trying to start my M with no luck. I've changed the regulator, coil, plugs, cap and rotor still no luck. Should I do positive ground, right now its negative ground? It turns over fine but does not fire up, also conpression starting does not work. I am not getting spark at the plugs, I 'm about to go out my mind.

thanks geb




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dej(JED)

11-06-2006 07:16:34




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Gebhardt, 11-04-2006 16:11:54  
Just save yourself all that stress and sell it.



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old

11-04-2006 18:31:38




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Gebhardt, 11-04-2006 16:11:54  
Well you say you replaced a number of things but, WHY not the points and condenser. You also say you have no spark. Again I say why not the points and condenser. The most likely reason for no spark is bad points and or condenser. If they are bad all the other stuff will not fix the problem



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Nat 2

11-04-2006 17:01:50




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Gebhardt, 11-04-2006 16:11:54  
1. The type of ground DOES NOT MATTER, especially if you're just trying to start the tractor, as long as it is a good ground. Since the tractor turns over with the starter motor, you have a good enough ground.

2. Pulling the tractor is a waste of time if you have no spark.

3. Cranking the tractor is a waste of time if you have no spark.

If you are not getting spark, and all your ignition parts are new, AND THEY ARE INSTALLED AND ADJUSTED PROPERLY (very important!!), then you cannot be getting electricity to the coil.

Get yourself a multimeter and set it on Volts. Turn the ignition on. Touch the red probe to the terminal on the coil. Touch the black probe to a clean spot on the tractor's frame. You should see a voltage reading, either 6 Volts or 12 Volts depending on the battery.

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Hey Nat

11-04-2006 17:15:21




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Nat 2, 11-04-2006 17:01:50  
The more info. I receive makes my think, I'll replace everything,Coil condenser pionts coil regulator plugs,cap. I think it may be bad ignition switch, it looks rusty and I have no power to either side of coil when ignition is on. What do you think



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El Toro

11-05-2006 03:54:13




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Hey Nat, 11-04-2006 17:15:21  
You need to find out why there's no voltage at the coil. Check the the ignition switch for voltage output, if there's no output voltage check for voltage coming in to the switch. If there's voltage present at the input side of the switch,your switch needs replacing. No voltage to the switch you need to keep tracing that feed wire back to the voltage source. Some are fed voltage from the starter solenoid and that wire could be broken.

You can run a separate hot wire fron the battery to the coil to see if the engine will start. I wouldn't be replacing parts until you find the voltage problem. If you're using negative ground
the wire from the _ negative terminal on the coil should go to the distributor. Clean those points too. Hal

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John T

11-04-2006 16:34:45




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Gebhardt, 11-04-2006 16:11:54  
Geb, I wouldnt go and change the ground cuz unless you repolarize correctly afterwards you may mess up the Voltage Regulator and an incorrect ground isnt gonna cause it not to spark at all, even though if the coil is reversed the spark is somewhat weaker. If theres no spark at the plugs work through the Troubleshooting Procedure below to find out whyyyyy yy, but check easy simple things first like voltage getting to the coil and the points and plugs themselves.


TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!! !!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.

MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK

1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,, ,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.

2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test. 3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,, ,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,, ,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,, ,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,, ,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,, ,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,, ,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,, ,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,, ,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,, ,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,, ,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,, ,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are baddddd ddddd . Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.

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Hey John

11-04-2006 16:56:57




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to John T, 11-04-2006 16:34:45  
If everything is new can I change to positive ground, what is better?



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John T

11-04-2006 17:37:47




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Hey John, 11-04-2006 16:56:57  
You can change to whatever ground your lil heart desires and it will still work PROVIDED..... .

You Polarize the genny before start up You swap ammeter leads if it reads bass ackwards

You swap coil leads if its backwards

HOWEVER THERES NO ADVANTAGE OR REASON TO DO SO if its ONLY a non spark problem (fix that first)cuz you need to solve that FIRST so you dont mess up the VR if the gennys isnt correctly polarized. Lets solve one problem at a time before having to change battery polarity which requires an ammeter and coil lead swap and re polarization. Even if its not the correct polarity it can still spark so lets get it to spark first then we can worry about polarity or non charging

Good Luck,

John T

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El Toro

11-04-2006 16:26:58




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 Re: My M does not start HELP!!!!!!!!!! in reply to Gebhardt, 11-04-2006 16:11:54  
Is this a 6 or 12 volt system? If it's 6 volt you should be using positive ground on the battery. You need to gap your points to .020" if you have a distributor and then clean those points with 320 wet or dry. Then clean them with a cotton swab dipped in alcohol several times. You also need to check for voltage at your coil
with the points open. Use a test lite or a volt meter. If you have voltage here on both small terminals, check at the point for voltage. You need the ignition switch in the on position for this test. Then see if the engine will start. If it doesn't change the condenser. Hal

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