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ignition system condenser

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SDE

10-18-2006 13:23:02




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A while ago I changed the coil on my 400, and life was good again. Twice it has started immediately and twice it was hard to start. Today it would not start. Swapped coils, swapped coil lead that goes to distributor and got a spark to ground. That lead had a splice in it. Each end piece showed a .3 reading with an Ohm meter, and the center showed a 1 on the left side of the display(digtal meter). Did I check that correctly?
Still would not start. Changed the condenser and she sings a happy tune again. Do condensers die a quick sudden death or do they break down and cause a few headaches along the way? Would that be why it was hard to start those two times? We have a 4H hayride this Sunday and I need this tractor to start!

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SDE

10-22-2006 06:19:49




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
My distributor unit was not tight enough to make a good ground. Tightened the upper nut and it started just as it should have all along.



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SDE

10-19-2006 03:53:43




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
Thank you for your replies. I have always felt that condensers were rarely ever an ignition problem. I tried to start her up again yesterday and she said NO. I removed the coil lead and cranked her over and it showed spark to frame. Put the lead back into the distributor and she started. Go figure! Only $12.06 for a new distributer cap. I hope this will solve the problem, again.
SDE



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SDE

10-19-2006 03:51:10




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
Thank you for your replies. I tried to start her up again yesterday and she said NO. I removed the coil lead and cranked her over and it showed spark to frame. Put the lead back into the distributor and she started. Only $12.06 for a new distributer cap. I hope this will solve the problem, again.
SDE



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John T

10-18-2006 16:43:39




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
SDE,

1) If a condensor fails to where it becomes a dead or near dead (low resistqnce) short IT KILLS THE SPARK PERIOD i.e. no weak or wimpy spark, just NO spark at all.

2) If it looses capacitance it can become "weak" (less farads) but the coil can still produce a spark, albeit maybe a faint thin wimpy yellow spark as opposed to a good strong blue spark.

3) If its totally removed from the circuit, she can again, still spark, but a weakkkkk spark.

Its possible to use an old fashioned analog ohmmeter (like my Simpson 260 or RCA WV 38A) to determine if a condensor is totally bad, however, it does NOT tell you if its totally and really good, i.e. even if it passes such low voltage low temperature checks, it can still fail under actual ooperating conditions . I have no luck nor would say any digital meter is a good way of checking them as compared to an analog meter and to really test them you need an actual condensor tester.

I agree with Jims good advive on their failure mode, they can go quick or slow or in between. I test them similar to how he does with my Simpson, maybe a lil different but thats ONLY a preliminary test to show if they are totally baddddd ddd.

Sitting here I cant be convinced if the condensor was all the problem or not as theres other variables taking place. Yes, a weak condensor can be the cause of hard starting but so can a bunch of other reasons. I dont necessarily change one when I change points unless I have reason to believe its bad. Their enemies are vibration, loose mounting to distributor, temperature fluctuations, moisture n humidity etc etc. One of their main functions is to greatly extend the life of the points as they would burn up very quick if none was in place but them and especially their capacitance rating affects the spark energy to a great extent; If its too much capacitance or they are a dead short either one, theres no spark at all, if too little theres still spark but weaker, if the right size the sparks the best plus the points last much longer..... ....

John T

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El Toro

10-18-2006 14:35:25




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
Sometimes they will start the engine when it's cold and if you happen to shut down the engine for some reason, you will get a no start when restarting the engine. It's probably a good idea to carry a few extra condensers along on the tractor with a screwdriver to be on the safe side.
Hal



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Janicholson

10-18-2006 13:58:46




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
Condensers die several types of death. The worst is intermittant operation that disapears when looked at but dies in the field. Condensers are a solid state device that unless physically damaged, or leaking goo, should not be changed if the points are wearing evenly and light grey color. (I know the argument may start, but I have seen as many bad new condensers as bad old ones) When they die it is usually a temperature related compromize that begins to breakdown when hot. Other times, they just short out internally and it stops sparking. They are basically two layers of rolled up aluminum foil with waxed paper between them, and the case connected to one layer of foil, and the lead connected to the other. If the connections break internally, they quit working. If the waxpaper (called a dielectric) "punctures" they short out and quench the spark very early. Testing with an OHM meter set on R X 1 is as follows: short the condenser so it is discharged. closing the points will do that with the ing off.
Then disconnect the coil from the dist. and put a piece of paper in the point gap. Touch the + ohm meter lead to ground, and the - lead to the terminal on the side of the dist. Watch the meter, it should show just a few ohms then steadily get more and more resistance over a few seconds. This is a modest test, and only uses a volt and a half or so from the ohm meter. (they normally see about 250 to 350 volts when in use in the circuit) Thus to really check it a capacitor condenser checker must be used, (or replace it) Good luck, JimN

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John T

10-18-2006 16:48:01




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to Janicholson, 10-18-2006 13:58:46  
Jim, good post, I use my Simpson 260 on R X 1 for the "short" test but then I turn it up on the R x 10,000 scale for the kickback "charge up" test and the two combined gives a pretty decent picture of capacitance, but as you say, it can still fail under operating conditions. I dont really see that many go bad..... .....

John T



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old

10-18-2006 13:58:14




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 Re: ignition system condenser in reply to SDE, 10-18-2006 13:23:02  
Condenser do not go bad often but when they do they can be a pain. I've seen just plan go and other times they go slowly. When they go slowly you start to get a weak spark but most people will not even see that since even on a weak spark and engine will run



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