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Finally gonna try to get the old H to charge its own battery. I don"t have much knowledge when it comes to electricity but I borrowed a voltmeter to try to decifer if its the generator or the regulator or neither.(6 volt w/ dist) I was told the generator was rebuilt a few years before I bought it(3 years ago). The ammeter will occasionally look like it is trying to charge a little at full throttle and shows discharge when the lights are on. Everything appears to be wired correct according to the diagram. My question is where should I stick the prongs of the voltmeter to check the generator and regulator. I was going to just experiment last night but chickened out cause I don"t know enough to know what is safe and what isn"t when it comes to wires. Thanks for the help. [Reply] [Send Email] Red Dave 10-10-2006 07:46:35
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Greg Eichler, 10-10-2006 05:54:11 I'll give you a little shorter answer.
Put the probes right across the battery. Battery voltage should be about 6.4 or so on a fully charged battery. It should increase to 7 volts and more when charging. With the engine running about half speed. place a jumper from the "field" terminal of the generator to ground. If it starts charging, the trouble is likely in the regulator, if it doesn't, the trouble is likely in the generator. Make sure the regulator is solidly grounded before you go buy one. Make sure your generator is polarized (flash the field) before you tear it off to work on it.
Link to Bob M's wiring diagrams.
[Reply] [No Email] Greg Eichler 10-10-2006 08:35:53
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Red Dave, 10-10-2006 07:46:35 When you say place jumper to ground, ground is anywhere on the tractor right? (ie engine block or frame)
Do you polorize generator with tractor running? Thanks for the responses guys. [Reply] [Send Email] John T 10-10-2006 11:47:48
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Greg Eichler, 10-10-2006 08:35:53 Yes, when we say ground we mean any metallic frame member thats bonded to the grounded battery post.
NO, you Polarize BEFORE you start the tractor when its NOT running. If you start it and the genny were polarized opposite what it should be, you risk damage to the VR !!!!! !!!!!1 Place the voltmeter on the battery and if its good and its fully charged it should read somewhere around 6.3 volts THEN when running at RPM if the charging system is working it should raise to the 6.5 and 7 volt range. IF NOT run my Troubleshooting Procedure posted below which will tell you if its a Genny or a VR problem. John T [Reply] [No Email] Greg Eichler 10-10-2006 14:57:21
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to John T, 10-10-2006 11:47:48 Well, first I checked the battery 6.2V Then I polorized generator per your instructions, got a spark.
With tractor at half RPM checked battery 6.2V Jumped a wire from generator to ground, battery 6.2V Then I put voltmeter from ARM post to FIELD post on generator and only had about 175 mV. Looks like my generator is no good right? [Reply] [Send Email] John T 10-10-2006 17:03:53
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Greg Eichler, 10-10-2006 14:57:21 I cant say yet if its a genny or a VR problem, heres how to tell which was already posted once below and is very easy to perform. I will also repost for your convenience how to run a "Motor Test" to tell if a genny is good or not..... ...
TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM 5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isn’t well grounded. b) IF IT’S A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isn’t well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING 6. If she still don’t charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isn’t working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct. 7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still don’t charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself. 8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post and have the Field Post dead grounded to frame, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator likely okay). Then, if you next remove the Fields ground and it speeds up some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem. The hot battery voltage may be taken off the VR's BAT terminal or the starter post or the battery itself for this test. If theres still any doubt you have to check grounds and connections and run my entire Troubleshooting Procedure (in my original post already), sorry but theres no easy way or free lunch or magic here, you gotta do some easy simple tests to diagnose the problem. Let us know, nest wishes n God Bless John T [Reply] [No Email] Red Dave 10-10-2006 09:05:27
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Greg Eichler, 10-10-2006 08:35:53 Yes, the engine block or frame should provide a good, solid ground.
I always polarize the generator with the engine stopped. Just remember, it is only a momentary thing. [Reply] [No Email] Rich Griffin 10-10-2006 06:44:51
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Greg Eichler, 10-10-2006 05:54:11 I have in the past installed a 6v alt on a H. Works great. Cheaper than a gen.and a reg. [Reply] [No Email] John T 10-10-2006 06:43:21
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Re: Troubleshooting H charging system in reply to Greg Eichler, 10-10-2006 05:54:11 Greg, See Para. 5 below to tell if the non charging problem is a Genny or a VR problem. As far as voltage measurements, a gennys output is at its ARM terminal, but its open unloaded output dont really tell you all that much, its the voltage the charging system is capable of increasing on a load like the battery itself which is the real test. A 6 volt battery if good and fully charged ought to read around 6.3 volts and if a good working charging system is attached to it the voltage should rise to the 6.5 to 7 or so range, thats how to tell if its REALLY CHARGING..
Heres how to troubleshoot both VR and cutout relay charging systems..... Check the easy simple things first like for a good genny and VR ground and then Polarize the genny if it wasnt done before..... TROUBLESHOOTING CHARGING SYSTEMS ARE YOU SURE THE AMMETER IS WIRED CORRECT AND WORKS????? If you turn the lights or ignition on (if coil ignition not a mag) when she’s not running, the ammeter should swing over to the - discharge direction, does yours??? Are BOTH the ammeter terminals reading hot battery voltage?? They MUST !!!!! ! There’s but one wire on the ammeters Supply (from battery/starter) terminal while its other Load terminal wires to the BAT terminal on a Cutout relay or VR PLUS wires to feed loads like lights or ignition, unless where a 4 terminal VR is used where lights n ignition are fed from the LOAD terminal on the VR. To Polarize the Generator, first temporarily dead ground the Gens Field post to case/frame, then momentarily flash jump a wire from the Cutout Relay or VR's "BAT" terminal over to its GEN (or ARM) terminal and you ought to get a small spark. Same things accomplished by momentarily flash jumping a hot wire (BAT terminal on Cutout Relay or VR or starter post etc) direct to the Gens ARM post to get the spark. TROUBLESHOOTING A CHARGING PROBLEM IN CLASS A DELCO TYPE SYSTEMS 1) For a good working Gen to get to and charge the battery, it has to have a path usually from the Gens ARM post,,,,, ,,,,to and through the Cutout Relay (between its GEN and BAT terminals, regardless if on a VR or Relay),,,,, ,,,up to the Load (NOT to battery) side of the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,to and through the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,,from BAT side of Ammeter to ungrounded battery terminal, often via the starter lug post. Is yours wired that way or equivalent ??? The ammeter should read hot battery voltage on BOTH terminals, does yours??? Even if an ammeter were stuck (but still continuous) as RPM increases the battery voltage should rise from 12.6 to near 14 volts and/or the lights glow brighter (half that on 6 volt systems). Have you tried that in case the ammeter isn’t working right????? 2) If the above is so, the BAT terminal on the VR or Cutout Relay MUST ALWAYS READ HOT BATTERY VOLTAGE. Does yours??? If not, the Gen cant get to and charge the battery. 3) The Gen to VR (if it has one) wiring is as follows: BAT on VR to ammeters load (NOT battery) side ARM (or GEN) on VR to Gens Armature post. FLD on VR to Gens Field post. (L) Load (if you have a 4 wire VR) up to BAT supply input terminal on switch to feed loads like lights and ignition. WIRING ON CUTOUT RELAYS: They wire BAT side to ammeters Load terminal,,,,, GEN side to gens Armature post. On cutout relay systems, the Gens Field post is wired to the light switch where it gets a dead ground for high charge or a resistive ground for low charge. Therefore, there must be a good connection from the Gens Field post up to the switch PLUS the switch is good and it’s well grounded !!!!! !! 4. THE GEN AND VR OR CUTOUT RELAY MUST BE WELL GROUNDED AND THE BELT GOOD N TIGHT. If any doubt, run a ground wire from the grounded battery post or clean solid frame member direct to the Gen and see what happens????? ????? ????? ????? ???? NOW, if the Gen and VR are grounded,,,,,all is wired correct,,,,, ,,BAT terminal on VR or Cutout Relay is HOT,,,,, ,,Belt is tight,,,,, ,,,Ammeter is good n continuous n works but she wont charge, have you had the batteries tested lately????? Is there electrolyte above all the plates and no cells have a gray or milky appearance????? A bad battery may not accept a charge you know!!!!! !! If the battery checks okay, proceed below to see if its a Gen or VR problem (AFTER you have insured the wiring per the above) TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM 5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isn’t well grounded. b) IF IT’S A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isn’t well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING 6. If she still don’t charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isn’t working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct. 7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still don’t charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself. 8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post and have the Field Post dead grounded to frame, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator likely okay). Then, if you next remove the Fields ground and it speeds up some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem. The hot battery voltage may be taken off the VR's BAT terminal or the starter post or the battery itself for this test. 9. Typical Gen problems may be the brushes are worn down or the hold down spring assemblies are stuck/corroded/dirty and arent pushing the brushes tight down against the commutator. Check those things out. Worse may be bad fields or armature etc. Air and WD 40 etc can clean and free them, the hold downs must be free n snap and hold the brushes DOWN TIGHT and they cant be worn down too low. SUMMARY: Check the wiring,,,,,the grounds,,,,, insure BAT on VR or Relay is hot,,,,, ,check battery (maybe load tested and Specific Gravity checked),,,,, ,,,good tight belt,,,,, ,insure ammeter is continuous (BOTH sides HOT),,,,, see if battery voltage rises above 12.6 (half that for 6 volt system) and/or light glow brighter,,,,, ,,,do the Field and cutout relay VR by pass checks,,,,, ,,insure the Gens brushes arent worn down and the hold down springs are free n clean and push the brushes down tight,,,,, ,,,,,check the connections,,,,, ,,,try the Gen Motor Test to see if its good. You may just have a bad battery or bad ground or connection if the Gen and VR or relay are okay. Good Luck n God Bless, let us all know. John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere pages instead of over here on the "dark side" lol
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