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Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new engine

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scott#2

08-30-2006 05:23:13




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Just wondering, after a rebuild should you use a lead additive in a new engine for a while? Or just run straight unleaded? Pros and Cons?

Thanks,

scott#2




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Skyhawk Greg

08-30-2006 13:00:05




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
Scott,

Short answer - Run straight unleaded.

Long answer - Detonation has been a problem since gasoline engines first appeared. A spark would start the combustion process in a controlled fashion, but some of the fuel would start to decompose before the flamefront within the cylinder would reach it. A byproduct of the decomposition would be compounds that could burn without a spark. These are called auto-ignition compounds, and their presence would eventually result in an uncontrolled, and over-rapid burning of the remaining air and fuel mixture which we recognize as detonation. Working backwards, we can see that the decomposition is caused by the heat of compression before the spark, the residual heat in the cylinder and heads, and the heat produced by the ignition of the fuel itself. Several chemicals were tried in an effort to eliminate detonation. Aniline, iodine, selenium oxychloride, methylclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonly, and a list that goes on and on. Finally, in the 1920's, it was noticed that certain lead products had a very high natural knock resistance. Soon, tetra-ethyl lead was used as an easy way to increase the octane numbers, which allowed higher compressions, and as a result, more power output. A side benefit of using lead was that, after the lead was involved in the burning process, a lead oxide then coated the valve seating area. This helped to stop the valve seat recession which was another problem of the time when using the cast iron heads. The early engines also had no valve seals, and the oil would drip down the valve stem. This caused a little bit of smoke, but it lubricated the valve stem where it contacted the cast iron head. When valve seals came into use, the lead became more important for a small amount of lubrication between the valves and the head. Lead was here to stay, at least for a while. One of the drawbacks of using the lead though, was that it would tend to build up on the insides of the engines. To reduce this, ethylene dibromide and ethylene dichloride were added to act as scavengers and keep the engines cleaner. Anyway, this explains why the lead used to be there. Today, newer engines, and rebuilt engines, use hardened valve seats and alloy valve guides that do not require leaded fuels for valve guide lubrication. How the octane numbers have been increased without the lead is a whole different thread.

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DeWayne Utrup

08-30-2006 10:02:52




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
Scott, I have had real good success by adding 2-3 tenths of a gallon of diesel to each tankful of unleaded gas in my H and 400 gas tractors. It slightly increases the engine temp when I am doing those light duty chores. This has greatly reduced the incidence of fouled plugs. It seems to work for me and does not add any cost to my, already too high, fuel price.
Hope this helps,
DeWayne



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John In Iowa

08-30-2006 09:31:50




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
Being a shade tree mechanic myself and working for a petroleum pipeline at a loading and pumping terminal I have seen the phase out of lead out of gasoline and seeing the phase out of sulfur out of fuel oil. The biggest problems that came out of Nolead gasoline were deposits buildup on the intake valves in test engines. Because of this Nolead gasoline in the US cannot be sold without a detergent additive to reduce Intake Valve deposits in it. The other problems that I seen on my own tractor is the lack of octane in Nolead. I have a Farmall 400 that is a working tractor. With step pistons and with the lack of octane of regular Nolead it will ping a lot when a load is put on it. Regular Nolead has an octane above 87. The old leaded Regular had an octane above 89 and those two points does make difference. Running Gasohol, which is a 10% blend of gasoline and ethanol, rises the octane two points and the 400 runs a lot better and pulls better. The trade off is that you got to use fresh fuel, if you let it set a fuel barrel for long period of time the ethanol will gather moisture and will fall out of the gasoline to the bottom and once you pump that into your fuel tank it will make a one heck of a mess. Also when parking the tractor for a long period of time you need to drain the carburetor. It rust and set up and make another mess. I do use a lead substitute - CD2 that is a detergent base additive. As hard as I work my tractor it can’t hurt.

John In Iowa

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Red Dave

08-30-2006 07:40:33




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
No, you don't need it.



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John T

08-30-2006 06:25:37




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
Scott, I take it you are working with an old tractor engine thats been rebuilt??? (Not near the compresion or RPM as say a high performance V8)

In addition to the anti knock properties afforded by "leaded" gas another benefit was how it softened/lubricated the valve face to valve seat impact to reduce wear and recission of the valve down into the seat plus it reduced sticking. One way to counteract that if you werent gonna use leaded gas was to use hardened valves and/or seats (if used in that engine) and I dont know if your rebuild involved that or not?????

Buttttt t regardless unless youre gonan run that engine longgggg g n hottttt ttt n harddddd dd for extended periods, Id say it will take a longgggg ggg time to wear the new valves n seats so bad it would be a problem and you could counteract that to some extent by checking n adjusting the valve lash time to time if ever needed.

Sooooo ooooo not knowing what, IF ANY, help any snake oil or so called lead substitute could provide in the long haul I think Id do without it especially if you used hardened valves/seats in the overhaul. I just dont forsee any additive making all that much difference in valve wear and unless you really raised the compression drastically I sure dont see preignition or spark knock as any problem that would require the use of higher octane gasoline or any ant knock additive such as a lead substitute.

I reckon I agree with the other gents SAVE YOUR MONEY

John T

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Janicholson

08-30-2006 06:12:36




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
I was a mechanic in Colorado when leadfree "Oxygenated" MTBE, and Ethenol fuels were introduced. From that point in time I have seen only bennefits from these fuels. Fewer engine deposits, clean long lasting spark plugs, less wear, and longer engine life. With one exception, all my vehicles were designed to run on leaded fuel. In all my career I have never seen a vehicle that was worked on by anyone where I worked that was dammaged by modern fuels. All stories I have heard were from marginal mechanics blaming fuel for bad practice. Unleaded fuel today is far higher in octane, and more free of deposit building chemicals and metal based molecules than any 50s farm fuel. I have never seen a valve failure from "lack of lead" deposits.
Some engines in some vehicles/tractors are mediocre in design and need higher octane fuel (and low ash/synthetic oil to avoid coking on valve stems, but it is not an intrinsic fuel problem. JimN

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dhermesc

08-30-2006 05:33:26




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
No.



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Nebraska Cowman

08-30-2006 05:25:41




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 Re: Unleaded gas or use a lead additive for new en in reply to scott#2, 08-30-2006 05:23:13  
The "lead" additive don't have lead in it anyway. I'd save my money.



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