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Glowing M

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chadd

08-17-2006 08:11:32




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When I was using our Farmall M the other day on the hay conditioner, it started to get dark. The tractor really shouldn't have been working that hard, as it never caught ground or anything. The entire baffled section of the muffler was orange and translucent. There was also a slight flame out of the exhaust. The bright orange glow also continued all the way under the hood and covered the entire exhaust section of the exhaust manifold. What would cause this? Oh, I notice that as the engine is run longer and gets up to the R on RUN on the temp gauge (its usual running temp) the idle seems to become more erratic and it pops more. Thanks for your imput,

Chad

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Bob M

08-17-2006 09:19:20




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to chadd, 08-17-2006 08:11:32  
Chad -

The red glowing manifold, fire out the stack, etc. is pretty much normal for these engines when worked really hard. However excessive heat and fire can also be from late ignition timing (timing set wrong or centrifugal advance not working), or the carb power screw adjusted too lean.

Bad timing can also cause roughness and popping out the exhaust at idle. Timing should be 0 deg (top dead center) mark on the fan pulley at low idle, then advancing to the 2nd mark (32 deg BTDC?) at high idle.

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You might also replace the spark plugs with a set 1 or 2 heat ranges colder – though colder plugs will be much more likely to foul if the tractor also run under light load/low RPM conditions.

Don’t bother switching to higher octane gas – it won’t significantly lower exhaust temperatures. Higher octane is required only if the engine pings/knocks under heavy load. Otherwise running high octane simply empties your wallet a little faster!

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chadd

08-17-2006 09:52:31




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to Bob M, 08-17-2006 09:19:20  
I agree that they should have a cherry red exhaust when worked. However, this was a yellow/orange and everything was completely lit up. Also, it wasn't pulling a plow or anything. It was just conditioning some hay, which our W6 doesn't even hardly notice and its exhaust doesn't glow at all at night running on the same gas. It continued to glow orange when the tractor was stationary with no load at full throttle. That was what made me think something was wrong. It never used to do it when it was on the mounted picker years ago, so it is something that has changed recently, and no settings were altered by us. Any other ideas, thanks again for all of your replies, I'll have to start checking some of these things.

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the tractor vet

08-17-2006 09:44:13




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to Bob M, 08-17-2006 09:19:20  
I beg to differ with ya on this but it will lower the temp as i have been there and done that now i am not sayen to go to the 93 just jump up to the 89 . And full advance is the first notch on the pulley . Now if ya think that i am tryen to pull your leg here then take and old M or what ever and put it on a dyno under full load after ya get her all tuned up to the best that ya can and run her on the 87 and write down what ya got as for heat and power then make the switch and see what ya got you will find out real fast what i am talken about . Case in point here on and old Massey 300 combine while tryen to be cheap i put the 87 octain Reg. gas in her the first year that i had it as heck it was just and old combine well ya had a hard time tryen to keep her below 220 to 230 degrees clean the rad out set the rad and had it rodded new water pump installed a 7 blade fan did this did that checked this check that and it would still run way hot i then gave some seirous thought to this problem and i swithed from the 87 and jumped to the 93 on it and OH whats this now she runs at 190-195 . Take a 6 cylinder gasser I H tractor and set it to the book and put her out in the field doing what she was ment to do and see where the low grade fuel will take ya when ya melt a piston out of her . We over here still use the old gassers everyday on the farms and there are a bunch of them working and i have seen almost every problem that has come down the pike with them . But hey i only spent a good part of my life worken on them so what do i know.

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Bob M

08-17-2006 10:35:36




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to the tractor vet, 08-17-2006 09:44:13  
When I was in engineering school (early 70’s) we ran a bunch of lab dyno tests on a Waukesha tractor engine - same as found in the Oliver 1800 or 1850 I believe... Also on a Jeep F-head and a Chevy 283.

We learned with these engines in stock trim switching from from 87 to 93 octane – also 100 octane av-gas) had no measurable effect on maximum power. In fact over long duration runs the highest octane fuels occasionally resulted in LESS power on account of lead fouling of the plugs and misfiring (this was still in the days when tetraethyl lead was the usual way to increase octane...)

However running by higher octane fuels it did let you make adjustments (like more advanced timing, running higher compression heads etc .) that would otherwise cause excessive knock/detonation in the engines. And these changes - in combination with the higher octane - gas DID result in significant increases in power.

Bottom line is we learned that simply switching to higher octane fuel and making no other changes accomplished nothing.

Incidentally we parked the last gas tractors in the mid-70's. We run 'em now only for parades, hayrides, pushing snow and the like. Their poor fuel economy relative to the diesel simply left 'em in the dust!

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Ron in Nebr

08-17-2006 23:54:02




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to Bob M, 08-17-2006 10:35:36  
Tractor Vet and Bob M are both dead on with their statements about high-octane fuel. To put it simply- the higher the octane, the cooler it burns. This is why higher octane will withstand more compression and/or timing advance before it detonates. Higher compression and the maximum timing a specific engine combination will tolerate are what makes more power, not the fuel octane rating. For maximum power you should run the very least octane rating the engine will tolerate without detonation under load.

To get back on subject, my grandad told me about moonlit nights back in the 30's when he and his brother would trade off mowing hay all night with a Regular pulling two seven foot bars. He didn't mention anything glowing but he said there was always a flame out the exhaust.

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old

08-17-2006 09:18:41




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to chadd, 08-17-2006 08:11:32  
If the timeing is off or the advance in the disturbutor isn't working that is one cause. And or its running lean and that will also cause that problem. One other thing that will cause that is if the exhaust is clogged up. Seen more then one exhaust that a dirt dubber built a nest in and clogged it up enough to cause that

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wegman

08-17-2006 08:47:38




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to chadd, 08-17-2006 08:11:32  
my grandpa has told me ploughing stories that atlate at night that the m was working so hard that the hardly needed the lights because the manifold was bright orange!



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the tractor vet

08-17-2006 08:57:20




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to wegman, 08-17-2006 08:47:38  
Thats because the org. headlites were no better then two BIC lighters on the old 6 volt system and the longer ya were out there the dimmer they got and at times the tractor would just plum quit because the battery went down to low . But the would get a nice glow to them . Heck my old 450 diesel pullen the 4x14semi mounts at nite would turn the manifold and muffler cherry red and stand a foot of fire out of her and a plume of coal black smoke that ya could see for miles.

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the tractor vet

08-17-2006 08:46:31




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to chadd, 08-17-2006 08:11:32  
Check the ing. timming and also check the dist to make sure that the advance is working use a timming lite and set to the First notch at full throttel and also check the main fuel screw for full fuel or 4to 5 turns off the seat and if this problem still persists then up your octain rating on the gas that you are burning in it . The only time they will glow like that is when you are realy worken them under full load such as plowen disken or under heavy PTo operation such as a two row mounted corn picker forage chopper or feed grinder or silage blower .

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RustyFarmall

08-17-2006 09:03:57




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to the tractor vet, 08-17-2006 08:46:31  
I will add that maybe you should check the clearance on the valves. The gap could be closing up when the engine gets warm, which will cause the rough idling and popping.



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the tractor vet

08-17-2006 09:56:51




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 Re: Glowing M in reply to RustyFarmall, 08-17-2006 09:03:57  
Good point as that is one of the biggest overlooked things on a tractor and also on Dodge cummins pickups . Boutgh a 560 out of Indiania once that had not been taken care of and it was plain but ugly oil leaks all over chargen system junk wireing shot spent a couple days cleaning and replacing gskts. and getting it running sounded bad had blow by big time and was thinking about hitting it between the headlite when i though now when ya had the valve cove off to replace that gskt . why did you not run the valves so i pulled the valve cove back off and you could have throwen a cat between the rocket and the end of the valve , made a valve adjustment took it out and put the brush hog on here and went to mowen in less then and hour she had cleand out and ran fine just looked ugly some guy came over and looked her over started her up ran it around a bit and took her home with him and it is still running fine and that has been 8 years ago after that deal all the tractors that i brough home got a valve adjustment.

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