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Re plugs fouling

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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 19:33:47




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took my distributar off today looked it over and looks pretty good springs not broke no real bad wear, weights seem to move free, so I went and bought some A/C 87 plugs, fella at napa told me they are the same as the 86"s, ran good for about 15 min now is missing and running rough over 1000 rpm"s, the plugs I took out were fouled with black clumpy stuff, looking for more Ideas any and all are appreciated

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farmallhal

08-13-2006 14:04:47




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
Wes, I had a similar problem when I got my Super C. Got it home and changed all fluids including the air cleaner. Didn't know at the time but it had the wrong oil cup (but fit just fine). Filled the cup with oil to the oil level line and immediately started having the problems you are describing. Also, the air cleaner was missing the oil baffle which was suppose to be on the bottom of the filter element in the main air cleaner body. I found by having the wrong cup and no oil baffle on the air cleaner the oil level was far to high and causing a rich and plug fouling constant problem. Once I found a complete and correct air cleaner the problem was solved. I jumped through all the hoops you are doing and just wanted to pass such a simple thing along if in fact this could be your problem. You might want to empty the cup and run it for a while in clean conditions since you indicate this occurs after only 15 minutes or so and see what happens. Hope this helpful to you. Hal

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John M

08-13-2006 05:22:10




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
Ill throw my nickels worth in.IMO, and mine alone, take those ACs out and put in Autolite 386s.On a fresh rebuild,your comprssion should be higher,again IMO,but maybe running the snot out of will help seat the rings.If higher octane fuel fixes your problem,then something else is wrong or youve built it to need the higher octane,like a pulling tractor.(Back when these were built octane was no where near what it is now).I think you just have your float set too high.

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the tractor vet

08-13-2006 07:00:56




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to John M, 08-13-2006 05:22:10  
Ahhhhh but you are wrong on that that the fuel was not what it is today reg. leaded gas back as far as i can remember was over 93 octain and hightest was anywhere from 100 up the only gas that was less then the 93 was some of the way off brand and Gulftane and that stuff would not even run a junky old 6 cylinder wore out cheve . When i first started driving i was working for a construction co. and the employees were allowed to buy there gas on the company name and get the 3 cents discount if we paid cash and if we charged it it cost use a penny off the discount . We did not keep gas at the shop just 25000 gllons of diesel and all the gas came from the small truckstop a mile west of the main shop they had the car gas that was 95 0ctain for the reg and the high test that was 100 octain and the truck gas that was 105 octain as we had one B model mack that was abig thermodine gas burner and a bunch of White Mustangs with big 6 cylinder gasserand you ran the hightest in them now the B model was a 1957 B60 that pulled one of the 50 ton lowboys , that is the first big truck that i drove and the fuel requirements for her were a Minium of 100 octain gas but it ran sooooo much better on the 105 and got a whoppen 3.5 MPG where as on the 100 if ya had to buy it some place that that only had the 100 it would drop down to 3MPG and she carried 200 gallon , now this was what the spec.s were for this OLD 1957 truck . Ford use to offer three differant 390 engines two 2 BBl. 1 four bbl , one was a reg. fuel two bbl. one premiume fuel 2 bbl. and the prem. fuel 4 bbl . while working at a large ford dealership we had lots of problems with people that used the wrong gas in the prem. 2 bbl . engines on the 390 reg. fuel you could get away with running the lower Sunoco 200 but not the 190 on the 390 prem. fuel the least ya could run was the 210 on the 390 4 bbl. the 230 was the bottom of the scale now this is if ya wanted to sorta split hairs on saven a penny . Now today with the 10% alky blends when this fuel lites it leans out on it's owen and believe me this is causeing problems on the old engines , yea i know i hear it all the time i have been running it and i don't see the problem well just how many of ya realy work your tractors like they were ment to be worked . Now over here there are a lot of older tractors that are still working everyday doing what they were ment to do not just well i am going to go play for a couple hours and then ya have a problem with it and come on here for some snake oil cure for the problems that ya have . And just how many of you have gone the route to have the fuel that you use lab tested and how many of you can look at the innereds of and engine and tell what happened and why has this happened , well i can . When i was working for the one big Ford dealership i ran the High Performance end of the service dept and was head mechanic on the two cars that we ran in the Ford drag Club and spent a bunch of time working with the engeneers in Detroit and at the cleveland engine plant .

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GordoSD

08-12-2006 21:19:12




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
I think the key here is that you said that " you rebuilt the carb". OK, it's not rocket science but it is exacting. Did you use the 80 dollar kit from IH or the 26 dollar kit from TSC? Were you rebuiding Stromberg 97's as a teenager in the 50's? How many carb's have you rebuilt? Ever tore down a Holley 650? A Carter AVS? A Rochester ? A Weber? A Zenith? I will personally put my online reputation on the line here, and say that if you send that carb to "RustyFarmall" for a PRO rebuild. your problems will be over! And NO he is not a relative or business associate. Just don't use "Denny's Carbs"

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the tractor vet

08-13-2006 07:26:10




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to GordoSD, 08-12-2006 21:19:12  
Well as for myself yes i have worked on all of the above from the time i was 16 with my first car that i sorta made better with dual 4 bbls. and all the trick stuff at the time then on to the 61 Ford with the 390 tri power and did all my owen carb work now i just realy don't have a bunch of time worken on a Hilbore injection set up maybe a littel better then a years on a 392 Donavin that was punched out to 478 with a 8-71 set up . myself i real love to work on the tri power .

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GordoSD

08-12-2006 21:13:09




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
I think the key here is that you said that " you rebuilt the carb". OK, it's not rocket science but it is exacting. Did you use the 80 dollar kit from IH or the 26 dollar kit from TSC? I will personally put my online reputation on the line here, and say that if you send that carb to "RustyFarmall" for a PRO rebuild. your problems will be over! And NO he is not a relative or business associate. Just don't use "Denny's Carbs"

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GordoSD

08-12-2006 19:57:54




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
New plugs should not be fouling up in a short time. Changing heat range is a cure for a downstream problem. Is that black chunky stuff greasy like oil, or is it dry carbon like fuel? Is it more prevalent on the electode or the tip? Are you running the engine at max or idle? You can have a rich/lean problem at idle and the reverse situation at max. If it is excess fuel/carbon problem from the carb you need to test run at idle only, and then at max only. You are getting either excess oil or fuel in the combustion chamber and you have to solve that. So tell us what the stuff is and where it is in detail.

Gordo

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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 20:19:53




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to GordoSD, 08-12-2006 19:57:54  
I just went out to the barn and got a plug it is dry carbon like fuel it is pretty bad on both the tip and the electode this is how Istarted on my carb main metering 3 turns off seat, idle 1 1/2 turns off seat, idling around 450 rpms runs pretty good at idle



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CNKS

08-13-2006 07:04:43




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 20:19:53  
Leave it at 3 turns and run it, you will know pretty quick if that setting is too lean. If it is still too rich, lower your float setting. Those are very simple carbs, and really don't need a "pro" rebuild, just someone who can follow instructions. But, if you know nothing about rebuilding them, send it to Rusty.



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CNKS

08-12-2006 19:55:32




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
If the black clumpy stuff is not oily, you are running way too rich. Leaner is better, as long as you don't get it too lean. Adjust the carb as suggested in your other post. Take it apart and put a kit in it, make sure the float is set correctly. A 300 does not require high octane gas -- at least not after being run 15 minutes, unless it has been very extensively modified. Not sure of this, but you could have enough crud on the top of your pistons, that no matter what you do, it's going to take time to get rid of it, even after you have the thing tuned right. A lot of the problem is that these tractors were designed to be used. They don't like sitting around and being run 15-30 minutes and shut off -- not saying you are doing that.

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the tractor vet

08-12-2006 20:28:46




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to CNKS, 08-12-2006 19:55:32  
The MAIN REASON FOR GOING TO A LITTEL HIGER GRADE OF GAS IS THAT IT burns longer and does not leave that mess as bad . When i tell somebody something it is because i have already been there and done that . I had a custermor that had a 400 Farmall that i myself did the carb because it was fouling plus faster then you could put them in and this engine was fresh and the rings were seated . They used this tractor on a mixer wagon twice a day i started working on this mans tractors and combine after he got mad at the one other guy that use to fix tractors in this area and after many hours of working on this one 400 tryen to figure out just why it did this and everytime we would look at the plugs it was fuel foul just for Shutts and giggels we drained the tank and took two five gallon cans down to the littel gas station at the end of the road came back to the shop and put the ten gallon into this 400 with a new set of plugs and ran it on the dyno at rated power for and hour and sent it back , i told the farmer to go down to the gasstation and get the 89 for it and not use the gas that he had in the tank for two weeks , well for two weeks that 400 ran fine for two weeks on the 89 the day that he went back to the 87 out of his tank he was back at the shop complainen that it fouled the plugs went back to the 89 and it was fine and when pulling the plugs after a month they were still looken good no sooting . Now let see here i still service four Super Mta's one 400 gaseer one 460 gasser two 706 gassers two H's a hand full of gasser deeres and all of them are working tractors as around here we farm with what most people play with . Now all of these tractors are either running the 89 or the 93 octain fuel and fuel has changed a bunch since these old tractors were built new . They do not have fuel injection or a hot ing. system they do not run high RPM's and they do not run as hot under load as does a car or pickup engine does . Now if ya could or wanted to install a MSD 6 box on it with a super hot MSD coil and gap the plugs at .045-.060 then that may work well as the spark from one of those systems will knock your socks off not just a tickel like a stock system does.

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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 20:37:59




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to the tractor vet, 08-12-2006 20:28:46  
alrighty then I believe I'll drain the gas and try some higher octane, I'm just trying to get my tractor running for work,, not a toy and I'm more than willing to try pretty much anything you fellas suggest, just don't have enough time in a day to get everything done.



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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 20:07:39




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to CNKS, 08-12-2006 19:55:32  
no it is not oily I was trying to mow my dads 100 acre crp field this is the first time I've got to use it since I gotten it put together, I rebuilt the carb awhile ago then just recently took it back apart to double check the float setting, if it is just crud on the pistons should I just keep pulling the plugs and cleaning them, and seems like the plugs I pulled out lasted longer than the new A/C 87's I bought today

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CNKS

08-12-2006 20:11:44




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 20:07:39  
Where do you have the main jet screw set at??



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the tractor vet

08-12-2006 19:45:02




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:33:47  
does this thing burn oil ???? Have ya ever checked the coil ??? Do you have copper core wires on her???? Have you realy finetuned the carb ????? What is the total advance timeing at full throttel ??? Have you put better gas in it??? I have been telling you guys that this 87 is not the way to go .It is fine in most new cars and pickups that don't do much and have hotter ing.and hotter running temps . Old tractors most have a 165 -180 thermostats or none at all .. Also what is your compresion on each cylinder .

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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 19:59:10




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to the tractor vet, 08-12-2006 19:45:02  
I don't know if it burns oil I've only had it running for about 4 hrs total since I bought it 2 years ago, it's got a new 12 volt coil on it, it has copper core wires, I thought I had the carb fine tuned, but now I can't get it running smooth with any carb adjustment, total advance is tdc meaning zero(does electronic ignition have anything to do with it not advancing) no I haven't put higher octane still got a full tank of 87 octane, thats the first I've heard about the 87 not the way to go I had around 90-95 compression in each cylinder

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the tractor vet

08-12-2006 20:41:24




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:59:10  
Alwright Try this i\, i know that i'll get some flak here but BTDT Get the stock 6 volt coil and the ballast resistor From Case I H for the coil and install that make sure that ya put the termianls to the dist. the correct way for the polarity of the tractor . I have found that this system works better on all the ones that i have changed over from 6 to 12 . make sure that your plugs are gapped at the .025 . Whenit is idealing do you have any smoke comming out the exhaust ?? at ideal ?? . Now as for the main jet setting if everything else is wright i have never ever seen and over fuel problem on any stock tractor that i have worked on now if someone has drilled the main jet or the float is way to high then it can over fuel . Now as for the comperssion readings she is a tad low but hey she ain't new . My S H is in that range and i have no problem with fouling plugs on her . If ou were close to me i would give ya hand on it .

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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 20:50:31




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to the tractor vet, 08-12-2006 20:41:24  
yes it has alittle smoke coming out the exhaust at idle but not real bad it stopped when I throttled her up



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the tractor vet

08-12-2006 20:55:27




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 20:50:31  
She is running to rich on the ideal side need to ween that back .



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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 21:01:51




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to the tractor vet, 08-12-2006 20:55:27  
Ok I got some things to try tomorrow I sure do appreciate everyones help, I'll let you know how things go tomorrow
Wes



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the tractor vet

08-12-2006 21:09:20




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 21:01:51  
Just where do you live here in the buckeye ???



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CNKS

08-12-2006 20:20:18




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:59:10  
New compression, assuming you have the original type pistons is 145, so you are getting low. The 90-95 spread is good though. Did you check the compression with the throttle wide open? it will be low otherwise. Do you have much blowby, that is excessive smoke out the draft tube on the right rear of the engine? Your gas is ok. Low octane gas is a long term problem, not an immediate one, 87 is not low enough to be causing that problem.

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Wes in Ohio

08-12-2006 20:30:07




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to CNKS, 08-12-2006 20:20:18  
no I did not check it with the throttle wide open
I had blow by when I first got it started but as soon as I adjusted the carb it seemed to go away havn't noticed it lately



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GordoSD

08-12-2006 20:09:40




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to Wes in Ohio, 08-12-2006 19:59:10  
OK, more info is better. 4 hrs in 2 years? No internal combustion engine on earth can be expected to run properly with this use. Are we going to go through a long drill to get this thing running so you can use it one hour nexst year? You need to either get out and work the thing or accept the fact that it won't run well if you don't operate it more.

Gordo



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wes in ohio

08-12-2006 20:25:25




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to GordoSD, 08-12-2006 20:09:40  
now just a second I bought it 2 years ago and tore it all apart and it took me 2 years to get it back together I've had it running about 4 hrs in the last week trying to get it running right so I can work the snot out of it



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GordoSD

08-12-2006 21:34:48




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to wes in ohio, 08-12-2006 20:25:25  
OK, semantics. "4 hours in two years" is a bit misleading. "4 hours in two weeks after a rebuild" is much more specific. Mea Culpa

Gordo



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CNKS

08-12-2006 19:58:51




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 Re: Re plugs fouling in reply to the tractor vet, 08-12-2006 19:45:02  
I've been running 87 in tractors for years, IH and JD, no problems. The newer gas is probably BETTER than the stuff was prior to the 70's when no lead became common.



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