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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Questions about 560

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Carp

07-11-2006 07:38:18




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I started tearing down my 560 diesel to replace the head gasket last night. I plan to paint is as it goes back together. I have just a few questions that you fella's can help me with.

I think I can change the hydraulic filter without draining the rear end, but I am not sure. Is that correct.

Can I put a turbo on the tractor without turning up the fuel? I am not looking for a big hp increase but rather a small increase and maybe a fuel effeciency improvement. I have a turbo from a Mercedes 3liter diesel that should fit like a saddle on a sow.

When I put the head gasket on, what kind of gasket sealer do you guys like to use? I don't need another leaky head. I do plan to check the head to make sure it is flat before I put it back on.

Thanks for the help.

Carp

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Beck

07-11-2006 14:50:38




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Carp, 07-11-2006 07:38:18  
No, you don't have to drain the whole rear end to change the hydraulic filter. Just find a small pan to place on the ground under the hydraulic plate. When you take the plate off to get at the hydraulic filter, you will catch about 1/2 gallon (maybe up to a gallon) of hydr. fluid.



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504-1

07-11-2006 14:15:28




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Carp, 07-11-2006 07:38:18  
In 1975 I put a turbo on a stock 1100 Massy(92 h.p. on the dyno before the TC) Everthing from the Manifolds to the oil lines was from MF, after it was back togather it put out 92hp on the same dyno. It went to 130hp after we turned up the fuel( we set it at 115hp and called it done)



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RustyFarmall

07-11-2006 10:21:18




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Carp, 07-11-2006 07:38:18  
I like the idea of the turbo, it should not give you any trouble. If you were to study the history of turbo-charging, you would find that technology was developed by the trucking industry as a means of improving fuel effiency. Increasing the horsepower was not the goal. The agriculture industry was quick to follow the trucking folks, again with the goal of increasing effiency. It was the aftermarket and hotrodder industry that found you could also crank up the horsepower by adding a turbo and turning up the fuel, often to the point of throwing all fuel effiency out the window. The folks that applied the hotrod technology to their farm tractors were the ones that experienced transmission and rear end failures and then blamed it on the tractor mfgr. for building an inferior machine. Go ahead and install the turbo, but then test the tractor on a dyno and dial the horsepower down to a reasonable level. Both you and the 560 will be happy.

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Wardner

07-11-2006 12:45:31




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to RustyFarmall, 07-11-2006 10:21:18  
I don't agree with some of your points. Engineers always strive to do more with less while trying to preserve an acceptable longevity. Turbos always make more power with less weight and sometimes with less cost. They came into their own with aircraft. Less weight applies here. Airplanes also benefitted due to the fact they operate at reduced atmospheric pressures snd oxegen content.

Before Detroit Diesel came out with their V-designs, they turboed the 6-71. After they came out with the V designs they turboed some of the new designs. The turbos doubled their product line overnight. It has never been about efficiency. Pounds of fuel per horsepower hour didn't change that much. Sure the turboes extract power from the exhaust but they also add loads in pumping losses. You may point to reduced exhaust noise as evidence of power scavenging, but in reality, the reduction is caused by averageing the wave pulses through the turbine. They are self muffling and produce back pressure in the manifold.

Turbo technolgy and application is very complex. Sometimes it cannot even be engineered. The applications have to be fitted and tested using different a/r ratios. A random turbo off the shelf or another application may benefit the engine, but it is a longshot.

When all is said and done, most turbos are tuned for a narrow load, RPM, and horsepower range. This is why we see wastegates on many of them. It extends their power band by sacrificing max power.
Max power is a valid engineering consideration for farm tractors and over-the-road trucks as the loads are constanly changing.

It may feel good to do a little shade-tree engineering, but I doubt if any of us has the experience, equipment, money, or smarts to do a good job on turbo selection.

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Carp

07-11-2006 14:34:03




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Wardner, 07-11-2006 12:45:31  
The engine the turbo is on is as 3L/181 cubic inch engine. The engine starts to develop significant boost at about 2000 rpm. Red line of the engine is about 4500 rpm. RPM x CI / 2 will give me roughly the volume of air being moved through the engine. 2000 rpm = 181K CI and at 4500 rpm = 408K CI. Using those numbers, the turbo should have an operating range on the 282 CI engine of the 560 of 1283 rpm to 2893. I know these are rough figures, but I think that it should be a fair fit.

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the tractor vet

07-11-2006 10:10:53




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Carp, 07-11-2006 07:38:18  
Carp , Make sure that your head is FLAT have it checked . Myself i use spray copper coat . Look the head bolt over real well and replace any that show any sign of pitting or strechen in the thread area. Use a bottoming tap and chase all bolt holes in the block use either or brake clean to clean and compressed air to clean and dry the holes lightly lube the threads on the head bolts and do a three stage torqure . As far as the charge-Hair dryer goes and not knowing the CID of the other engine or the amount of booste i am not going to say yea or nah. One thing i do know is that 282's don't like much over 85-90 hp and they will not last long at that with a charger as the 282 does not have enough head bolts and not in the wright places . As far as fuel econmy goes they were not bad as they were stock and maybe plus 10-15% . One other thing on then is checking to see if all the sleeves are set in correctly if they are not setting in the block wright then it will be hard to hold a head gskt.

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ed1

07-11-2006 09:46:14




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Carp, 07-11-2006 07:38:18  
I'd worry about the rear end. The same engine was in the 706 just turned up a little.



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Carp

07-11-2006 09:52:52




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to ed1, 07-11-2006 09:46:14  
I am not really worried about the rear end. This tractor is a 62. By then they had redesigned the gears in the rear end to hold anything the engine could throw at it. Thanks for the input.



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Wardner

07-11-2006 08:41:47




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Carp, 07-11-2006 07:38:18  
Is there any point in not turning up the fuel? Turbos synthetically increase the displacement of a motor. Therefore, it is necessary to increase the fuel delivery to keep pace. Of course, some guys like the sound of the turbo whistle.



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Carp

07-11-2006 09:39:30




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 Re: Questions about 560 in reply to Wardner, 07-11-2006 08:41:47  
I would think that there would be a point to adding a turbo without turing up the fuel. Right now the tractor has enough HP for the most part, but under heavy load it will blow quite a bit of black smoke. By adding the turbo I should get a slight increase in hp, but what I am really looking for is a decrease in black smoke under the same load (less unburnt fuel). I am thinking this should be the case as the turbo in increase the pressure of the intake air increasing the amount of avialable oxegen in the cylinder as well as increasing compression ratio and heat. In theory I should get more HP for the same amount of fuel. Just wanted to know if anyone else had experience with that.

An the turbo will sound cool.

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