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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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1950 M ignition starting problem

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m.r.vmax

06-26-2006 08:43:14




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Hello, I have installed a new alternater and coil with the built-in resister and when I turn over the motor the starter draws so much from the battery it will not start until I release the starter button.Then it has juice to the coil to fire it up.The M was already converted to 12v before I bought it. Any suggestions?




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RustyFarmall

06-26-2006 12:34:28




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to m.r.vmax, 06-26-2006 08:43:14  
Do it the way that JPL suggests, it will work that way. That is how my 1940 M with 12 volt alternator and internally ballasted coil is set up, and it starts almost instantly.



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John T

06-26-2006 14:54:01




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to RustyFarmall, 06-26-2006 12:34:28  
jpl n Rusty, If he happens to have one of those solenoids with the extra lil (I) terminal (like Ford n some GM used) its hot with full battery voltage ONLY when the solenoid is engaged (its cranking) and thats good for and used when one uses a 6 volt coil with an "External" Ballast Resistor on a 12 volt tractor. What it does is effectively by pass the ballast and apply full unballasted battery voltage to the coil (ie. 12 volts on a 6 volt coil) ONLY while cranking. Thats what some farmers call a "start on 12 and run on 6 coil system"..... ..HOWEVER if theres no external ballast to by pass, the solenoids lil extra lil I terminal (or any other terminal for that matter) dosent apply any more voltage to the coil (assuming switch n all else is okay) then what normally comes from the regular ignition switch feed.

HOWEVER if the switch contacts (resistive/carboned/loose) or the switch wiring is bad, the extra lil jumper wire to the coil could help and it cant hurt nuttin so its worth a try BUTTTT its not the normal or factor way, it is the factory way when they use a 6 volt coil on a 12 volt tractor with an external ballast and want to improve the starting spark energy and yesssss it works great.

Bottom line is its NOT ordinary but it cant hurt and might actually help as a band aid approach (but he needs to fix the REAL problem) if the switch or wiring has some resistance and is dropping voltage.

Fun chat, yall take care n God Bless

John T

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John T

06-26-2006 12:18:59




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to m.r.vmax, 06-26-2006 08:43:14  
mr, FIRST OF ALL the only circuits on a 12 volt tractor whereby theres any additional coil voltage WHILE CRANKING are circuits that have BOTH an external Ballast Resistor PLUS a Ballast ByPass (while cranking) switch n associated circuitry, either say an extra I terminal on an electric solenoid or some mechanical push start switches having the extra small I terminal (mostly on Deere mechanical starter switches, I doubt you have one)

Since you have whats called an internally ballasted full 12 volt coil, there can be no provision from a solenoid I terminal etc whereby you could even get additional voltage on the coil when cranking such as the externally ballasted systems can achieve when they start on 12 volts and then run 6 volts on a 6 volt coil.

NOW THAT WE GOT THAT STRAIGHTENED OUT we must look at other causes for your problem.

You need to verify the feed to the coil is from a correct switch and on its correct terminal (typically labeled IGN)) so when switched to ON and INCLUDING when the engine is being cranked to start, theres hot battery voltage being applied to the coil AT ALL TIMES i.e. place a voltmeter on the coils high input (NOT to distributor) terminal and when the switch is ON and including when the engine is being cranked, there should be hot battery voltage. NOTE when cranking the battery voltage normally drops, but if the battery or starter etc is bad it can drop to excess causing a weak spark n hard starting (that may be your problem)

As noted below maybe theres a hidden series Ballast Resistor lurking somewhere, it would be after the ignition switch and ahead of the coil, and if its in place youre dropping too much voltage before the coil causing a weak (especially when cranking) spark. If the coil is a true full 12 volt rated internally ballasted unit DO NOT USE ANY OTHER EXTRA SERIES BALLAST it causes too weak a spark.

Another common problem could be worn resistive ignition switch contacts. If so, theres resistance across it which drops voltage causing (especially when cranking) a weak spark, To test for that simply "Hot Wire" the coil by running a temporary jumper wire from a hot battery voltage source direct to the coils high input side n see how she starts then????? If she starts n runs fine hot wired BUT NOT via the ignitions switches IGN terminal feeding the coil, the problems a bad switch or bad or shorted wiring from the switch to the coil.

Place a voltmeter on the coil and with the ignition points closed (which they usually are) theres should be near full battery voltage of 12.6 on the coil and if not check the switch (for voltage drop) and wiring form it to the coil.

If none of the above is the problem, its time to see what the battery voltage does when cranking, cuz a bad battery or starter or switch or cable or ground or connection problem may be causing low voltage on the coil when cranking, thus a weak spark. Place a voltmeter on the battery n crank her over n see what it reads. Depending on the starter n engine n battery n temperature etc etc it may drop to say 10 volts, but if it drops to like 9 or below its one of the problems mentioned which is reducing the coil voltage drastically causing a weak spark. Similar to the above a voltmeter on the coil can give the same results.

Looks for signs of cable arcing or where the ground cable is attached and to be safe I would remove, clean n wire brush, n reattach each n every battery n ground n starter n solenoid connection then try it !!!!! !!!!!

A bad starter can draw excess current and drop battery voltage to excess, does the starter get hot or smoke or have that tell tale burned electrical smell??? SUMMARY: Check the coil n battery voltage when cranking,,,,, ,,,look for a hidden Ballast Resisitor,,,,, ,,,,, check the ignition switch for voltage drop (hot wire test) and if the coil is being fed correctly from an IGN terminal thats HOT BOTH when ON and while cranking,,,,, ,,,,, ,insure the coil is a true full 12 volt rated internally ballsted unit,,,,, ,,have the battery load tested,,,,, ,,check ALLLLL L battery cables n terminal ends n grounds n other solenood n starter connections CUZ A BAD GROUND OR CABLE OR CONNECTION CAN DROP ESCESS VOLTAGE ESPECIALLY WHEN CRANKING heck maye all you have is a bad cable or connection or a weak battery????? FINALLY check the starter cuz if its bad it can drag the battery voltage down to excess when cranking causing a weak spark.

Theres more possibilities but I gotta get back to the hay field, good luck n God Bless, let us all know

John T

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jpl

06-26-2006 09:45:06




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to m.r.vmax, 06-26-2006 08:43:14  
I had same problem, had to run a wire from starter solenoid to coil. its full 12volt and hot only when you crank it over. gm cars had the same hook up for years.



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John T

06-26-2006 14:55:19




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to jpl, 06-26-2006 09:45:06  
jpl n Rusty, If he happens to have one of those solenoids with the extra lil (I) terminal (like Ford n some GM used) its hot with full battery voltage ONLY when the solenoid is engaged (its cranking) and thats good for and used when one uses a 6 volt coil with an "External" Ballast Resistor on a 12 volt tractor. What it does is effectively by pass the ballast and apply full unballasted battery voltage to the coil (ie. 12 volts on a 6 volt coil) ONLY while cranking. Thats what some farmers call a "start on 12 and run on 6 coil system"..... ..HOWEVER if theres no external ballast to by pass, the solenoids lil extra lil I terminal (or any other terminal for that matter) dosent apply any more voltage to the coil (assuming switch n all else is okay) then what normally comes from the regular ignition switch feed.

HOWEVER if the switch contacts (resistive/carboned/loose) or the switch wiring is bad, the extra lil jumper wire to the coil could help and it cant hurt nuttin so its worth a try BUTTTT its not the normal or factor way, it is the factory way when they use a 6 volt coil on a 12 volt tractor with an external ballast and want to improve the starting spark energy and yesssss it works great.

Bottom line is its NOT ordinary but it cant hurt and might actually help as a band aid approach (but he needs to fix the REAL problem) if the switch or wiring has some resistance and is dropping voltage.

Fun chat, yall take care n God Bless

John T

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m.r.vmax

06-26-2006 11:00:24




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to jpl, 06-26-2006 09:45:06  
I thought about doing that but was not sure about having a hot wire from the battery to the push/pull switch to the coil and have one from the starter solenoid to the coil at the same time. Would that create too much spark and burn my points alot faster?



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RustyFarmall

06-26-2006 12:39:25




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to m.r.vmax, 06-26-2006 11:00:24  
JPL has it right, you will not get too much voltage to your points, you have 12 volts available, both wires are coming from the same 12 volt battery, you could run as many wires as you wanted, and you would still have only 12 volts at the coil.



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Nat 2

06-26-2006 09:32:43




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to m.r.vmax, 06-26-2006 08:43:14  
Are you sure that's the problem?

Dad's M does the same thing, but on 12V it spins so darned fast that we figure the distributor is advancing the spark when it shouldn't be. It won't fire as long as you're cranking it, but the moment you let off the switch, it fires and runs just fine.

Your options are to live with it, or replace the starter with a 12V model.



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m.r.vmax

06-26-2006 11:06:32




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to Nat 2, 06-26-2006 09:32:43  
It sounds like that might be my problem, I'LL just have to live with it. I just worry about having to spin it over that much longer to get it to fire without the oil pumping. Thank GOD I don't have to use the old handcrank!!!! Thanks alot for your help guys.



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Bob

06-26-2006 09:31:03




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to m.r.vmax, 06-26-2006 08:43:14  
Look for a ballast resistor that may have been installed in the primary wiring to the coil by a PO, which is dropping the voltage to your new coil, which needs full voltage for a HOT spark.

Check the voltage at the (+) terminal on the coil.



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m.r.vmax

06-26-2006 11:12:25




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 Re: 1950 M ignition starting problem in reply to Bob, 06-26-2006 09:31:03  
The old man that I bought the M from had a ceramic resister on it but he had to put a short jumper wire on it to get more fire to the coil.And it worked just fine, but I just had to go and ruin a good thing and put a "new" coil on it without the external resister on it.



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