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We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!!

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BRSIL

04-26-2006 15:26:37




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We overhauled this gas 656 with a standard trans this winter and it runs great. We use it as a loader tractor 99% of the time, but this spring we decided to pull a disk with it and after working it a couple of minutes it looses power, pops and bangs, then dies. We threw it on the dyno to try and replicate the loaded conditon and sure enough, a minute or two on the dyno and she looses power, pops thru the carb, and dies. Unless you put her right back to idle she will die. Here"s what we done so far. We double check all ignition system, points, plugs, cap, rotor, mechanical advance, coil, and that all has checkout fine. We have had the carb apart 6 times double checking everything and cant find anything wrong with it. We have a bunch of old part left over for one of these carb so we start changing things inside. It seems to us that it is starving for fuel. We checked the fuel supply from the tank, sediment bowl, and threw the needle and seat and that all seems to be fine. We drilled out a old seat to increase fuel volume and it seem to help but instead of dying after 2 minutes it dies after 4 minutes. The tractor is also low on power, it only dynos at 58HP. The thing runs great as a loader tractor no problems at all, untill you put a heavier load on it. Any help will be much appreciated.

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zic

08-12-2006 16:16:20




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
sounds like it runs good untill the bowl runs out of gas. all ya godda do is bend the float to keep the bowl full. come on, go and try it



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Allan In NE

04-27-2006 07:05:05




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
You didn't put that ventui in upsidedown, did you?

Allan



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BillyinStoughton

04-27-2006 10:29:49




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to Allan In NE, 04-27-2006 07:05:05  
Good point Allan! The IH mechanic told us when we were in the carb on the 544 to make sure it was installed the correct way, and to verify that it was the correct p/n. Apparently there are quite a few different venturis used on the small chassis gassers, and he stated that they have been mixed up in the packaging before. You also need to make sure that you know if you have the Marvel Schebler or the IHC carb...they obviously use different kits.

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Jimmy King

04-28-2006 03:44:08




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BillyinStoughton, 04-27-2006 10:29:49  
544 won't run except with the choke out when the vintura is upside down been there and done that, it came from the dealer I bought it from the first time like that. I did the second time.



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BillyinStoughton

04-27-2006 06:35:02




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Had this exact same problem on a 544 not that long ago. Same scenario: ran alright for loader work, but once the load increased it was a matter of minutes before the engine wouldn't run above an idle. The primary problem that we found was that the plastic venturi that sits in between the carb halves, had a small fracture in it...and that same venturi sits on a small ring gasket, that in our case had started to deteriorate. After replacing both it has run like a champ since. Cowman also suggested snychronizing the governor/carb which also improved performance. This might be something to look at.

Good luck!

Billy

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Janicholson

04-27-2006 06:19:19




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
One thing not mentioned in the posts below is the possibility that the fuel system is in fact plugged up. Fuel cap vent with a restriction will allow only enough fuel to intermittantly run full out. These are thirsty tractors, and the more full the tank, the sooner it draws a vacuum and leans out and dies. If the cap vent is wide open, the system needs to be checked for flow at the needle and seat. Make no other changes, place a pan under the carb with the bowl off and turn on the fuel. The stream should be like a big dog taking a leak for 3-5 min. (Big Bladder).
This is a simple check, good luck,
JimN

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El Toro

04-27-2006 02:22:58




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
I wouldn't use that 87 octane gas either. You should open the main jet adjusting screw CCW and see if the power increases. Should be down near the bottom of the carburetor. Hal



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the tractor vet

04-27-2006 08:25:23




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to El Toro, 04-27-2006 02:22:58  
Unless some one removed the fuel shutoff selinoid there is no main fuel adjusting screw on that tractor.



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Allan In NE

04-27-2006 08:54:49




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to the tractor vet, 04-27-2006 08:25:23  
Heck Vet,

I've got one that someone removed the solenoid and installed a plug.

Nope, no adjustment to 'em; pretty much wide open. :>)

Allan



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El Toro

04-27-2006 09:06:05




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to Allan In NE, 04-27-2006 08:54:49  
See I learned something today. Thanks, Hal



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Rich62

04-26-2006 22:59:21




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
I agree with 504, could the coil gets warm and starts to break up. Or a bad condenser, a new condenser can be bad. Check your fuel flow for a full 3 minutes. Let it run in a can, a gas tractor this size can easily burn 5 gals an hour, thats a quart in 3 minutes. These are just a few things I've found out the hard way. Good luck!



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george md

04-26-2006 22:19:59




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
The fact that you can idle it down and it will continue to run eliminates both ignition and the pistons seizing in the bore . A piston that is seizing in the bore will stop the engine whether or not you push the throttle to idle and it will be some time before it cools and comes free . And as a machine shop owner the quality control on the newer parts is much better than it used to be , now measuring pistons and sleeve bores is a formallity rather than a necessity . I am a Clevite WD,Silvolite WD,and FM dealer.

That engine is starving for gas .

george

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the tractor vet

04-27-2006 08:07:07




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to george md, 04-26-2006 22:19:59  
George , i don't care if you are a dealer forthem or not as i use to be a dealer the cast pistons are junk period the expanchion on them is unreal as i have been building tractor engines for along time and this problem started after they dropped the forged pistons and yes they will run at and ideal sometimes . Now if ya think i am kidding go build up any 6 cylinder gasser and just stuff the pistons in don't worry about clearance it and sizen it then go put it to work under full throttel and full load and we will just see how long it will run before it seezes up . the old zolnar pistons were forged and where what was in them from the factory and you could hog on them all day long and never seeze one this all started with the cheep cast one and don't set there and tell me that they are so great along with the new head gskts mat. just see what it takes to seal up a head on one now adays even if ya deck the block and mill the head with new head bolts copper coat or what have ya they seep from just tinny bubbels comming out between the new and improved material to coolant squarting out . We never had this problem with the OLD gskts with asbetous now how do i know all of this well because i have been around for a long time and i have seen these problems from the start . I had one 706 that i put three new differant head gskt on and had problem s tryen to seal and when i put a factory NOS asbestous head gskt on it stopped leaking And the last set of pistons that were NOS FORGED ZOLNAR FOR 291 did not seeze up while out plowen on a hot fall day in vary hard ground . And as far as not getting enough fuel well on the any of the gas carbs after the 560-660- they all have no adjustments to set the main jet as when the key is turned on the fuel shut off selinoid opens the main jet wide open now unless their is dirt blocking that jet or the total advance timming is to far ahead or the coil is junk or they have a manifold leak or they are running a 87 octain gas that has MTB or ethinhol the tractor should perform as per spec. I have seen with my owen eyes that a clevit CAST PISTON swell over .025 above the top ring and score all 6 holes with the worste being on 1 and 6 and this is on a hand fitted engine with .0035 skirt to wall clearance . and the brand new in the box Clevit CAST pistons ran up to .0075 from each other in one brand new kit shipped to my door from the warehouse . Now i have spent a bunch of money on tryen to solve this problem when if first started to happen with a lot of phone calls and LAB testing that does not come cheap and i learned that between the Cast piston and the JUNK fuel is where the problems lie. Around my area we still have a bunch of gassers on the frams that work everyday not a play toy but as a mainstay tractors that are run everyday and i have seen more then my fair share of problems with gas tractors . Now if everybody would just read the Operators books and READ THE SECTION ON FUEL REQUIRMENTS CLOSELY then a bunch of the problems will go away . You have to keep in mind that when the bulk of the 6 cylinder tractors were built that regular gas was of 95 octain so back then almost all the suppliers shipped to the farm 95 octain gas as REGULAR gas the only gas that i can remember of not being that hig was GULFTAIN AND SUNOCO 190 and that stuff would make a old junk 6 cylinder chevy knock and ping. Now here we are today with the price of gas getting sofar out of hand that we are all looking for a way to save what ever we can . I have spent a good many years specializen in I H tractor repair and on the tractors that i work on i know them inside and out and all there quarks so when i come on here and tryand help a guy out it is from my knolage and experance and there are times that i am wrong as i sure as heck am not perfect as i have had my screwups .

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george md

04-27-2006 22:44:22




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to the tractor vet, 04-27-2006 08:07:07  
TV ,

I don't know where you got your idea that cast
pistons expand more than forged, but it is the other
way around . Cast expand between 1/3 and 1/2 as much
as forged and the new hyper eutectic ones expand
much less than plain cast pistons. For your info ,I have been building engines for
many years and we do most anything from a single
cylinder to a D-8 ,gas or diesel. I do tend to agree that some of the newer gaskets are not as good as the older ones ,I don't
care much for fel pro ( many of their sets are not complete ) I have better service out of victor , but sometimes FP is the only one that
has the set.

george

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MN Scott

04-27-2006 09:56:48




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to the tractor vet, 04-27-2006 08:07:07  
I sure have to agree with you on the quality of the new head gaskets for these engines, THEY ARE JUNK. I gave up trying to get my 706 to seal up and just ran it. After 25 hours now it has almost stopped bubbling. It only has to make it about two more weeks when the cows go out on pasture and the hay feeding is done. Then the 706 is getting a one way ticket to the next consignment auction and I'am all diesel from now on except for the SH and SM.

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the tractor vet

04-27-2006 10:26:30




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to MN Scott, 04-27-2006 09:56:48  
I have had to pull them down to over 100 ft.lbs hot to get them to stop and just crings while doing that on one it took 110ft.lbs of torque i was waiting to pull the thread out of the block or break a head bolt . I made several calls to Felpro on that fact that they would not seal and got all stors of excueses then i switched to Victor and there are two differant stiles of them one they ship to Case I H and the other to parts stores took some diggen to find this out. Just like FelPro have three differant gskt. for the 6 cylinder I H's one is there famious peratorque and it does not work at all then there is the metal copper one that leaks like a sive then they also have one that they only ship to Case I H now that one is not to bad but ya have to pull it down on the high side with clean thread chased holes and run a die over the threads on the bolts Plus wire brushing and darn near hand fitting each bolt to the hole plus luben them . Nothing worng with a 706 gasser once ya get it all figured out they will run a long time and they will start everyday no matter what the weather . in the winter the 706 of my buddy gets run every day for feeding the critters and now that it is well broke in even running the feed grinder as there is no sence in tryen to get the 1066 or 806 up and running just to grind a batch of feed once a week them two set in the shed till warmer weather comes back . Here in a bit i'll be head out to the farm and the chore for the day is drillen holes and fence building as it is a bit wet and IMPO to early to start corn planting as i just know you guys out west and up north are going to ship more COLD air down this way as the night time temps have been stayen down in the mid 30's and with costs don't need to replant Eugen is all fired up to get going and i am not we had hope to be starten by this weekend but maybe next so for now build fence and be done with that job while we can still drill holes with out barrowen that high tech hyd auger to go on the skidsteer .

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MN Scott

04-26-2006 21:37:59




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
I second the spark plug post. If you have D21 champion's like the book calls for they are way to hot for modern gas. Put in D15Y or the equivelent other brand and it will run fine, I've had this problem with my 706 and 504 when they started mandating ethenol in MN.



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Jim J

04-26-2006 21:11:53




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Put in a set of D15Y plugs and your tractor will run. Your plugs are to hot.



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504

04-26-2006 20:46:51




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Sounds like a bad coil.



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the tractor vet

04-26-2006 20:15:37




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Well you ain't going to like what i am going to tell ya but here it is plain and simpel , First off i will bet that you did not size the pistons to the bore that they were going into as they must have .004 skirt to wall clearance . The new JUNK that you get today is not kept in close tolarence so there for ya have to Mic each piston and Mic each bore and then size it with a ridged hone . Second the timming must be dead on for full advance at full throttel . third you should also have over thiry hours of break in on light to med load befor any heavy work like plowen disken choppen grinding feed . Fourth ya have to run the 93 octain gas OR you will swell the top of the pistons and they will expand out past the skirt width and guald to the sleeves and give the symptions that you have discribed . So now if you are real lucky and the scroren is not to bad then you are out a head set a pan gskt 6 new pistons a set of rings and maybe you can hone the sleeves and put it back together , but you will have to use a ridged hone and you will need a good set of mic's both inside and outside one PLUS A BORE GAUGE . The factory org. pistons where what they call Forged and the NEW JUNK IS CAST and a cast piston can not disapate heat as fast as a forged one can and this is where the problems start and with the use of the 87 octain gas they get a whole bunch hotter faster then with the 93 octain as it burns cooler longer thus gives ya more power the 87 junk is blended to burn fast and hot and with the additves in it it makes it's owen oxyegn and this leans the burn out and lean is mean . I have been thru this before twice now because of 87 octain gas in a 6 cylinder I H . Yes they will run on the junk but don't try to make them do any real work or you end up with what ya got now . So don't shoot me for the bad news here but this is the way it is. SORRY.

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the tractor vet

04-26-2006 20:15:36




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Well you ain't going to like what i am going to tell ya but here it is plain and simpel , First off i will bet that you did not size the pistons to the bore that they were going into as they must have .004 skirt to wall clearance . The new JUNK that you get today is not kept in close tolarence so there for ya have to Mic each piston and Mic each bore and then size it with a ridged hone . Second the timming must be dead on for full advance at full throttel . third you should also have over thiry hours of break in on light to med load befor any heavy work like plowen disken choppen grinding feed . Fourth ya have to run the 93 octain gas OR you will swell the top of the pistons and they will expand out past the skirt width and guald to the sleeves and give the symptions that you have discribed . So now if you are real lucky and the scroren is not to bad then you are out a head set a pan gskt 6 new pistons a set of rings and maybe you can hone the sleeves and put it back together , but you will have to use a ridged hone and you will need a good set of mic's both inside and outside one PLUS A BORE GAUGE . The factory org. pistons where what they call Forged and the NEW JUNK IS CAST and a cast piston can not disapate heat as fast as a forged one can and this is where the problems start and with the use of the 87 octain gas they get a whole bunch hotter faster then with the 93 octain as it burns cooler longer thus gives ya more power the 87 junk is blended to burn fast and hot and with the additves in it it makes it's owen oxyegn and this leans the burn out and lean is mean . I have been thru this before twice now because of 87 octain gas in a 6 cylinder I H . Yes they will run on the junk but don't try to make them do any real work or you end up with what ya got now . So don't shoot me for the bad news here but this is the way it is. SORRY.

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the tractor vet

04-26-2006 20:15:35




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Well you ain't going to like what i am going to tell ya but here it is plain and simpel , First off i will bet that you did not size the pistons to the bore that they were going into as they must have .004 skirt to wall clearance . The new JUNK that you get today is not kept in close tolarence so there for ya have to Mic each piston and Mic each bore and then size it with a ridged hone . Second the timming must be dead on for full advance at full throttel . third you should also have over thiry hours of break in on light to med load befor any heavy work like plowen disken choppen grinding feed . Fourth ya have to run the 93 octain gas OR you will swell the top of the pistons and they will expand out past the skirt width and guald to the sleeves and give the symptions that you have discribed . So now if you are real lucky and the scroren is not to bad then you are out a head set a pan gskt 6 new pistons a set of rings and maybe you can hone the sleeves and put it back together , but you will have to use a ridged hone and you will need a good set of mic's both inside and outside one PLUS A BORE GAUGE . The factory org. pistons where what they call Forged and the NEW JUNK IS CAST and a cast piston can not disapate heat as fast as a forged one can and this is where the problems start and with the use of the 87 octain gas they get a whole bunch hotter faster then with the 93 octain as it burns cooler longer thus gives ya more power the 87 junk is blended to burn fast and hot and with the additves in it it makes it's owen oxyegn and this leans the burn out and lean is mean . I have been thru this before twice now because of 87 octain gas in a 6 cylinder I H . Yes they will run on the junk but don't try to make them do any real work or you end up with what ya got now . So don't shoot me for the bad news here but this is the way it is. SORRY.

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Sloroll

04-26-2006 15:33:36




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to BRSIL, 04-26-2006 15:26:37  
Could be the manifold gasket. Did you retorque it after rebuild? When under a heavy pull the exhaust heats up expands and the intake can cool with increased fuel flow, contract, allowing for a leak.



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dhermesc

04-27-2006 05:38:49




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 Re: We're ready to torch this 656. Help please!!!! in reply to Sloroll, 04-26-2006 15:33:36  
I agree with Sloroll, its most likely the gasket or the manifold itself has crack that opens up when it gets hot.

Went through the same issue with an overhauled gas engine in a 815 combine. If it would have run long enough to get hot we would have burned it to the ground in the field. Between us and the dealership that did the overhaul it only took the entire fall before we started swapping parts from another engine and caught it. As my dad said he spent almost $2000 on an engine for an overhaul and then spent another $3000 trying to get it to run again.

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